Episode 2 summary:
In this episode of New Material, Herbert and Hamza dive deep into the murky waters of imposter syndrome and its potentially crushing effect on creative work. Hamza shares the raw reality of tackling a high-stakes textbook update project, facing a torrent of feedback that left him questioning his own skill. He reflects on the challenge of navigating criticism while holding onto his creative voice. Meanwhile, Herbert opens up about his own battles with editorial scrutiny and why staying true to your creative vision matters, even when external voices get loud. Together, they explore the push and pull of self-doubt, learning to separate your work from your worth, and embracing uncertainty as part of the creative journey. If you’ve ever wrestled with feelings of inadequacy or wanted a glimpse into the creative process’s messier side, this episode gives you an honest look at what it means to create with integrity and resilience.
Useful links:
- Hamza co-authored a textbook, Organisational Behaviour (10th Edition) (via LinkedIn)
- Ryan Leslie’s 2014 interview with The Combat Jack Show (RIP!)
- Picasso, the boilermaker, and expertise
- Why do anything? (via Herbert’s blog)
- Weirdly Brilliant by Jason Shen (via Herbert’s blog)
Transcript:
Editor’s note: This transcript was automatically generated by AI, and we have not edited below this sentence.
Herbert Lui 0:09
Music. What’s new? Everyone you’re listening to an episode of the new material show. So let me intro myself real quick. My name is Herbert. I’m the author of a book called Creative doing and I’m a marketing advisor. So right now I’m doing that mostly with a company called Fgx, but I work with a lot of companies on their marketing, creative stuff, tech stuff, strategy stuff, that’s what I love. We’re talking about hip hop here all the time as well. That’s what we breathe. That’s me. Hamza. Who are you? For the very few people here who might not know who you are, love
Hamza Khan 1:08
that fellow purveyor of the culture. I am an author of two books. I should add best selling author, because, you know, I have people in my in my life that tell me I’m I’m doing my community a disservice by not owning who I am. So I’m not just an author. Y’all a best selling author of two books, true burnout, gamble and leadership reinvented. I’m an educator. I teach in various forms. I used to teach at Toronto metropolitan university. I have since shifted my teaching exclusively to boardrooms, to conferences, to corporations, governments, associations, nonprofits, you name it, through the work that I do as an entrepreneur, co founder of skills camp, coming up on 10 years of doing our own thing, doing it our way. Shout out to Frank Sinatra, no. Shout out to Jay Z. I had a story about that, about how I’m dude. I’m starting to go bad on Jay. I’m starting to go back. But
Herbert Lui 2:02
hold on, first I saw that. I saw the update on LinkedIn. It was a, you got that textbook now too, a recently published, yes, why don’t you, why don’t you tell us what’s new with that? Yes,
Hamza Khan 2:15
yes, yes. So judge and Robbins, shout out to the OGS of organizational behavior, education in colleges and universities. They wrote a book called organizational behavior, very appropriately named, given the subject matter, and they are on their 10th edition for an international version. And I was asked by Yeah, man, and kudos to them. It’s been really surreal to watch from the inside and experience action, not even just watch, to actually be part of the process of updating a seminal book.
It almost makes me want to put together a team to update versions of the burnout gamble and leadership reinvented, and the wheels were already turning. But what it was like is I had a have a, I said a hat, a like, he’s still alive. He’s still alive and kicking. He’s doing phenomenally well. Shout out to James Hunt, dear friend and mentor of mine in Australia, who reached out to me and said, Hey, I have an opportunity from Pearson to update this book for a couple of key markets in the world. Would you be interested in joining? And I said, Absolutely, what’s what we got to do here? And he’s like, it’s pretty substantial overhaul. It’s the first time that they’re not only editing parts of the book, but they’re writing new chapters, and here are four chapters for you. One of them is on leadership, diversity, the other one is on resilience, burnout, so on and so forth. And I said, I’m in whatever you need. And I got an opportunity to collaborate with James and a team of international writers, authors, educators, people just like us. And it took an entire year to update this book, I got to experience what it’s like to be part of the machine that is Pearson and we publish this thing. And what was it like? What was it like? Man, I don’t think I’ve had this much criticism for my writing ever, ever. Man, like, Oh, my goodness, that’s what were they criticizing, though, like, it’s a textbook everything, man, that’s what I would have thought. At least there, there were, at times, honestly, where, I think, given the topic of conversation we’re having today, where I actually questioned several times whether I was even good enough for this project. I mean, dude, they were, they were criticizing my citation style. They were like, well, this is not up to APA 8.0
what you’ve done over here is part of the 6.0 and there was another point, man, where, like, they were, they were ripping apart, like, sentence structure. And I’m like, Man, this, this is actually flowing quite well. But they’re like, yeah, it’s not quite resonant. It’s not going to be resonant with the audience for this reason. And they would share a little guide. And man, it was, it was a bewildering process, to say the least, because I walked away from it almost disassociated. I was like, I really enjoyed the process of collaborating with James and everybody else, but I definitely walked away feeling less than as an author. I was like, I’m not as smart, I’m not as eloquent, I’m not as good of a writer as I think I am. Actually forgot about that project. I actually just, like, purged the memory a bit. So when the book actually came into my hands, there was a moment of like, oh yeah, this was a part of what I did that’s pretty damn cool. Like, all of that struggle, all of that criticism, all of the temporary pain that I felt manifested in this beautiful thing. So net positive, very happy with it. And thank you for asking,
Herbert Lui 5:20
man, amazing. Man, that’s so cool to hear. It’s it was so cool to see that image of you with the textbook, and just to hear a sense of like, hey, what it was actually like to work on it is, it’s fascinating. It’s absolutely fascinating. I think that, like, the editorial process often can be like that, and it’s really relevant to our topic today, which is we want to talk about creative imposter syndrome. I mean, let’s dive in. I feel like the the topic came up when Hamza, you and I were on LinkedIn, I think it was on one of your posts, right? Somebody had commented, why don’t you unpack that story real quick, and then we can dive into the definitions and and what it might feel like and how to wrestle with it.
Hamza Khan 6:09
Yeah, absolutely, man. And I did want to ask you, what’s new with you, but since we’re already, we already caught a flow here, let’s just get right into it. Okay, let’s go. Let’s go. I can’t remember what post is, what post it was, but I frequently talk about imposter syndrome. It’s something that I struggle with. Herbert, I know that you have also experienced it. I don’t know if you would identify somebody who struggles with it, necessarily. I’d be very curious to hear your perspective in a moment. But I mentioned imposter syndrome on a recent LinkedIn post, and I had one of my colleagues who I interact with quite frequently across the ether. We haven’t really talked much, but I feel like that’s a lot of my relationships. We don’t necessarily talk in person. Meet up in person, but there’s like, a nice frequency and consistency, I should say, a consistency of online interactions. And one of those people is a gentleman by the name of Amaya Jaya Kumar. I hope I’m pronouncing your name correctly, Amaya, but he left a very thoughtful comment on a recent post where he said, I’ve also struggled with imposter syndrome. Thank you for opening up and being vulnerable. And I responded, I felt like that was an opportunity for me to share how I truly feel about imposter syndrome and how my thinking has changed. My thinking over the last couple of years has been one of imposter syndrome being a response to an environment not necessarily designed for people with certain identities, but also what has been helpful for my imposter syndrome navigation journey has been reframing it as internalized self hate, which is quite heavy, and we can unpack that for sure, but I remember seeing that dialog and thinking to myself, Man as A creative as somebody engaged in the art of materialization of ideas and works. This might be very relevant. And so I tagged you, Herbert, with the side eye emoji, whatever that’s called, which is the notice this, look at this emoji. And I said, potential topic. And you very enthusiastically responded, yes. And so here we are.
Herbert Lui 8:01
Here we are. And for, I mean, imposter syndrome is this thing, I think that a lot of people can find really relatable. I think that there’s, you know, let’s, let’s kind of like, sketch out what this really means, right? I think that there’s usually, when we talk about imposter syndrome, there’s this sense of self doubt, maybe even unworthiness, associated with this word. I think that it’s particularly the reason it’s a syndrome, and not just being an imposter, is because usually it affects people who probably don’t have a reason to feel that way on the outside right, they’re super high achieving, or already experienced some degree of success, and yet still the emotional experience, you know, you just feel fake, like I’m like, a poser, or I feel like I shouldn’t be here, or somehow I snuck in here and like I’m, like, tricking everyone. Somehow I just pretended my way in, and everyone fell for it, and now I’m here, and now I don’t know what I’m doing. I think that is the very raw feeling of what imposter syndrome feels like. Does that can you relate with that Hamza, like, how does that feel to you? Yeah,
Hamza Khan 9:13
I did 100% and you captured it. You captured it beautifully. It’s very intuitive feeling, and I love that the alliteration of feel fake, like feeling fake is exactly what it is. I have often described imposter syndrome as like this visceral feeling of somebody holding on to you and pulling you and dragging you away. And I’ve often visualized my inner imposter as being like a sort of deformed,
you know, uglier version of Hamza. Like, it’s imagine, like, the Smeagol version of me.
Yeah, I’m not kidding. Like, and like, I actually go Gollum and I it actually is like a little goblin. It’s like a little demon. It’s a little gremlin that in key moments of creation, production, when I’m trying to be. My whole self, or best self, jumps on my back, scratches me, you know, pulls my leg and closes my mouth. It’s just a tormentor. It even has, you know, a similar voice to smeagler Gollum, which I’m not going to attempt to do on this pod, you know, unless you really want me to right.
Herbert Lui 10:19
Shot for the listener, you put it up there.
Precious. How does it go?
Hamza Khan 10:34
It goes like this. It’s like a bus selling waffle, but on Amazon, right? Amazon, best selling author is still a best selling author, bro,
Herbert Lui 10:44
yo. That was good man. That was good lord of the rings when I can only do like a precious thing, you know. Anyway, that was really real, right? So that was a very strong image, though. Yeah, man, what your imposter syndrome looks and feels like to you 100%
Hamza Khan 11:07
and it’s interesting that we were giving these very sort of like intuitive definitions here. Actually, in preparation for this episode, I looked up what the Oxford dictionary definition is of imposter syndrome, and check this out. I’d love to get your thoughts on this right, the persistent inability, so it’s not just occasional, it’s persistent inability to believe that one’s success so it has to do with achievement is deserved or has been legitimately achieved as a result of one’s own efforts or skills. And so like, if we were to break that apart and look at its component parts, number one, we have imposter, so that’s a person who pretends to be someone else in order to deceive others, especially for fraudulent gains. And then syndrome, I think, is really interesting, because it’s not just imposter experience or imposter feeling. Syndrome is a grouping of symptoms, so there’s multiple ways it can manifest, but the specific definition here is a group of symptoms which consistently occur together, or a condition characterized by a set of associated symptoms. So let me elaborate on your definition of feeling fake. It’s like always feeling fake, or consistently feeling fake in response or in regards to achievements that are clearly your own or are a result of your efforts. How does that sound to you? It
Herbert Lui 12:24
almost feels like you didn’t do them. Is that what you’re saying or like you You aren’t like, it wasn’t just you almost like, that’s, that’s how it feels like it’s, oh, I somehow, like, fluked my way into it, yeah,
Hamza Khan 12:35
for example. All right, I’m gonna give you a compliment in real time and tell me honestly how you feel about this. I’m going to say to you, creative doing is a masterful book. It is right up there with some of the greatest books on creativity and productivity, peak performance and just getting things done. It’s an incredible piece of work in real time. Tell me how you feel, dude,
Herbert Lui 13:01
I loved it. Say more, say more, and I’ll say it feels really good. I’m gonna be that’s the purpose of this
Hamza Khan 13:18
is really nice. This is good, but let me, let me, let me highlight something for you and the materialist, right? So it’s very clear that you have a healthy relationship with your work. I knew your achievement. You don’t actually, in this moment, struggle with imposter syndrome, not in this moment. And let’s talk about that, right? So in this moment, the way that you receive that compliment is powerful. People praise me similarly for my creative work. People say Hamza, that was an excellent keynote. For example, somebody dropped on LinkedIn that she said this keynote was something else like her mind was blown by it, wow. There was a version of Hamza not too long ago that would have been like, oh, you know what? I that you’re too kind. And it was really a team effort, and I had a designer like I would just deflect and pass on the praise because I didn’t feel worthy of it. But now what I say is similar to what you say. I say that is very powerful to receive. Thank you. I’m going to receive that in the spirit in which it was shared. That means a lot to me. It really does. And I also add these days I appreciate that I worked really hard on it, I put my soul into it, but that wasn’t always the case. And you said that that wasn’t always the case for you, so I’d actually love to hear from you a time when you experienced imposter syndrome, yeah,
Herbert Lui 14:35
getting edited, I think, is a very frequent and common moment that wasn’t the experience when I was working on creative doing my editor, Rachel Jepsen, was just this great editing coach, great writing coach, and I was lucky enough to work with her for the book, and she was working at the publisher, Holloway at the time, and so she really took. I think Rachel’s approach to editing was very empowering and very nurturing, in a sense, so her, like, an editor’s job really is just to make the work better, right? It’s really just to make the work good. And some editors really just don’t have the bandwidth or the care to, like, really care how the writer feels, right, right? So, you know, Rachel did a really good job. I think her approach to editing just and her personality just makes it really difficult for her not to be like that. She’s just, she, you know, great editor. But I will say, I won’t name names, because, you know, there’s gonna be some smoke here, but I think that for me, I was working on with a team, and we all edited each other’s work really aggressively, right? And and so a this team had really high editorial standards. One of the best teams I’ve worked on. We made some great work together. I’ll be showing that work all the time. I’m gonna leave everyone guessing who it is, but, but the what I will say is, oh, my god, the editorial process to me, in my mind, first of all, was completely so messy all the time. Because, you know, the the flow is supposed to be very linear. It’s supposed to be, you know, draft, first round, second round, third round, and then, like a top line review, and then it’s out, right? That’s a lot. And we’re talking about just articles here. We’re not talking about books and stuff. And, you know, asterisks for the people listening to this who were on that team. Love them as people. Love you as people. Yeah, you’re great. Great people, some of the best editors and writers I worked with. But Jesus Christ, that process was horrible to me. It was so bad I would turn in drafts that a first of all, there was never enough time to do a good draft. So of course, it’s like, okay, this was in my best work because I didn’t have enough time to do it. Because we have meetings, we have this, we have that. We have all of these other things we need to do, asides from article production, okay? Then on top of that, there was so there wasn’t enough time for me to make a draft that I liked, but that’s supposed to be okay, because nobody really turns in a draft that they like, and the editor is supposed to really pull it up, right? It’s not really the writer’s job on that team. And then, like, sometimes I would be, I would submit a draft, and it would get stuck in a round so round one, we’re supposed to go to round two next, right? The editor will be like, No. And one particular always, constantly. Was like, No, this is not round two yet. You gotta go back. Fix it. Fix this. Fix this. Like, constantly. And then same of round two, same with round three. So it was like, Oh my gosh. I would do like several, like, seven rounds of edits for what was supposed to be a three round process, right? And, and actually, I would say sometimes it felt like these, like, there’s like, on a team, you work with each other on the day to day, and you’re all kind of, it’s like, it’s like a friendly competition, in a way, right? It’s like, hey, look, we, we have one promotion that we’re kind of going for here. We all have, like, performance review. And sometimes it felt like when, when I would say, when I was excelling at something, it felt like these edits were almost getting, like, weaponized against me, a little bit like it was like, Oh, I’m just gonna, like, completely tear this piece apart because I I’m, like, really up, I don’t know, right? Like, I’m not happy that he’s getting the spotlight on this or that. Now that’s a feeling that is a narrative. I don’t think it was actually what was happening, to be clear, but it felt like that to me. And so as a result of all this, I’m deviating, and I worry, as a result of all these, you know, these harsh edits, this constant confusion about where we were in the editorial process, and also, like, a lack of care about, hey, like I see where this piece can go, or, you know, a lack of affirmation that I got when working on creative doing I just felt like, oh my god, I’m like the worst writer on this team. I need to compensate for this with all of this non writing work, and that’s actually where my strength is. Whether that’s true or not, I’m not sure, but I will say I felt like the worst writer on the team, and it felt horrible working on that team. Well, this was writing.
Hamza Khan 19:21
I wouldn’t say what you shared here is good. What you experienced was not good. And I appreciate your candor and for being vulnerable and for opening up about this process, which I think is much more commonplace given my research on leadership and the inability of leadership to create environments that are conducive to thriving and also create cultures that are more positive, something where everybody can win, so on and so forth. So just putting that aside, I just wanted to say quickly thank you for for sharing that, because it was healing for me as your as your co host on this pod, to hear that you actually reminded me that the experience of being with the Pearson team was a. Lot tougher than I might have admitted. In fact, I’m thinking about how I described that when you when you put me on the spot, and I think I glossed over a lot of things. I don’t think that I was comfortable talking about the Pearson experience, because I haven’t fully processed how painful it was. And I’m saying this with all due respect to James, to the Pearson team. Ultimately, like I said, it was net positive. I came out of that feeling good about the product, but I didn’t feel good about myself while I was going through it, for similar reasons. I was part of a team of elite writers and scholars. I mean, I’m talking about PhDs, you know, superstar MBA students and graduates. I’m talking about, you know, someone at the caliber of James Hunt, editors associated with a brand like Pearson. And here I was being like little old me, you know, I’ve just got an undergrad from the University of Toronto in English literature, you know, I got a 3.86 GPA. It’s not amazing. And that was in my last year. My CGPA is another story, dude. So, you know, I’m an Amazon Best Selling Author, just so we’re clear. You know, there’s frequent spelling, grammar and syntax errors in my newsletters. I realize that I have a very passive language style, and all of these things just made me consistently feel like I was holding the team back, that I was the weakest link, that I was not producing at the caliber of everybody else. And the scariest thing for me is that I was working in isolation, because this team was distributed. There was writers in Hong Kong, there was writers on the West Coast of the US. There was a writer in Australia. Here I was driving my time between New York and Toronto, and so the time zones were off. We could never actually meet. I could never actually talk to my fellow co writers. My only access point to the work was through the editorial team. And the editorial team, maybe for the sake of speed, they would provide these edits back, and they felt very terse. It was, first of all, always in red. So you know, if we’re thinking about creativity and we’re thinking about biologically, our hardwiring towards the color red, it’s fire, it’s blood, it’s warning, it’s danger. And so I would get slaughtered. I would open up this word doc, and it would just be a friggin, like, a like, a cascade of red, and I’m like, What did I do this time? Like, that’s how I felt. I felt like I was being punished every single time it was it, oh my gosh, I was being penalized. And I’m saying this, all this is say that what you just described right now is so commonplace in the editorial process, and I definitely had a tough time not taking it personally. I took I took the edits personally because I felt like I wasn’t good enough for Pearson standards, and maybe I’m not as good of a writer as I think I am, and that was tough for me. And I don’t think I fully incorporated the identity I think, I think I rejected the identity that they were not trying to heap on me, but I think my own insecurities allowed for that feedback to permeate through the work. It should have just been contained at the work. It should have just been about the writing for that project, but I allowed it to move from that project into my being and so long winded way of coming back to ask you this question, Herbert, when you went through that experience, did you incorporate the identity of I’m not as good of a writer as I think I am based on this group’s standards? Or have you relegated it to a figment of your imagination? I don’t know why I slowed down by saying figment. Sorry, I just a figment of your imagination.
Herbert Lui 23:48
Well played, my friend. Well played. Let me think, I think, look, I studied business, right? So you, all of our exams are multiple choice. There’s, I mean, all of our evaluations were exams too. Like, there’s a handful of projects and stuff, but you’re not you get, like, a letter grade, I mean, sorry, like a number grade, and it’s very clear what you did, what right, what you did wrong. And I think in the editorial process, that isn’t always black and white, and it’s not really certain, like, you really need to have a clear vision of what you want to do, and if that editor shares that vision, then you’re both, like, heading in a good direction, but oftentimes, like, on, I mean, I’m not sure about you, but I’m on my team. Like It, it wasn’t the case that I had a clear vision of what to do, because the creative process is generative, which, you know, is worth unpacking in itself. Actually, I’ll quickly get into that right now. The way I work is I very much like I love doing something and then seeing where it goes. Yeah, I don’t think that’s actually very not every creative person works that way. But. Some people like having a vision and working backwards from that. But for me, my creative process is super generative. So even if I have an outline, even if I have whatever I do like making the thing and then just letting loose a little more and seeing how it unfolds now that that presents a problem, a because you’re not sure where the end goal is, which then makes you feel like it can make you feel, hey, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m just I’m exploring, right and and I don’t think that part of the creative process is as clear or like, maybe people just don’t talk about the exploratory process as much, but then the editor can’t really help you, because they’re also like, Well, I’m just going to go default to what my version of what I would do, and I like, we’re two different, very different people, or you’re really five very different people, right? So that’s kind of and so with creative work, when you approach it like that, it’s very easy to feel a sense of doubt and a sense of confusion even early in the process, when you’re not sure what you’re doing, but you do. I think for me, what brings me a sense of confidence or peace is it’s going to go where it needs to go, and I’m very confident about that, and that statement has to always be on my mind. I think, when I’m when I’m working on something, and let me
Hamza Khan 26:22
draw an interesting parallel here, based on what you said, Herbert, I like that a lot, I think, and I look forward to if potentially you disagree with this. I remember I brought it up in episode one, but there is a distinction to be made between art and design. Art is something you do for yourself. Design is something you do with others, if we’re just thinking about it graphically, but they’re both creative endeavors. Creativity is required to produce art, creativity is required to produce design. But what the distinction is, fundamentally, is the level of CO creativity required, collaboration required and audience. So using your example, and even thinking about, you know, our our writing processes, so it sounds like the team that you worked with and the team that I worked with, what we were ultimately doing was we were creating designs. We were working for another person, another system, an audience, and not necessarily ourselves. You were producing for an audience, for the company that you were working with at the time, I was writing for a student, undergraduate audience, and the criticism that I was receiving from my team kept on coming back to you know, this is good writing. It’s eloquent, it’s elaborate, but it’s too prosaic. You’re writing as though you’re writing a novel, but write for a textbook. Write for a second year business student, write for a fourth year business student, and I was struggling mostly. Most of the comments were around tone and language, style and voice. Technically, I was a very good writer. I was very competent. The sources that I could pull were good. Of course, my citation styles were a bit off, but that’s beyond the point I was, I was I was producing content that wasn’t initially meeting the mark. Now here’s the thing, if I were to write my own book on organizational behavior, and I am the producer, I am I am the person bankrolling it, I am the author, I have final say. Best believe it’s going to be written very differently than a textbook that is going to be an art project, essentially, because I’m writing it for myself. And the parallel that I want to draw here is I recently watched megalopolis. Francis Ford Coppola.
Herbert Lui 28:33
Francis Ford Coppola,
Hamza Khan 28:35
thank you. Thank you. I let it off and I’m like, missed opportunity. Missed opportunity. Oh boy, when these Patreon episodes get released, just give me a heads up, because my political my political ambitions end around that same time. Okay, so speaking of Mr. Foreign car, Coppola Francis megalopolis is a movie he’s been wanting to make since 1977 All right, wow. And so this is his magnum opus. This has been this idea has been in his heart. It’s been moving through across the Sands of Time, and it finally manifested. I watched this movie. Oh my god, I cannot stop thinking about this movie. In fact, I’m gonna go watch it again today. I’m actually coming to your neck of the woods. I’m coming down to the Alamo Drafthouse tonight. 605. Film. Yeah,
Herbert Lui 29:24
dude. Whoa, interesting. Interesting. I
Hamza Khan 29:28
say this to say this movie is getting demolished by the critics. I mean, he is getting tarred and feathered, lambasted, pilloried, you name it, because people are like, it’s too long, it’s too convoluted, it’s too messy, blah, blah, blah other people’s standards, because they are now measuring this movie against the formula that Hollywood has been churning out. They’re measuring megalopolis against whatever, whatever stinker Marvel dropped recently, right all left in Marvel. But like or. Sony like they’re measuring against Madame Webb and Craven the hunter, like they want this movie to fit in a box. But Francis has come out swinging, and he’s like, bro, I made the movie that’s in my heart, like one you can say whatever you want about muggle, plus one thing you cannot say about it is there’s not a sincere effort. There’s not hard in it, and that is why it stands out to me. It is a movie that is such a unique experience. I don’t think anybody has ever experienced. Ever experienced anything like megalopolis in theaters. And keep in mind, though, and the thing I have to remind people is, this is the same guy that gave us Godfather one, Godfather two, Dracula apocalypse. Now, do you think he doesn’t know what the heck he’s doing? So that was my feeling when I was writing this, when I was on the Pearson project. I was like, I was getting slapped down on some shit. And I’m like, I was about to unnecessarily just like, let off a string for sure. Well,
Herbert Lui 30:48
well, you know, I know exactly how you feel. Like,
Hamza Khan 30:54
do you? Do you not know who the fuck I am?
Herbert Lui 30:59
Let him cook, man. Let him go.
Hamza Khan 31:00
My mom is a con bro like, why don’t you take some editorial advice from me, son? Oh, my gosh. I know you felt that way too. I know you felt that way when you were working on this project like so much. You must not know who I am, like you, I probably have more newsletter subscribers than all you is combined, bro. Oh, 100% Sorry.
Herbert Lui 31:23
Let you finish it.
Hamza Khan 31:25
If I cook anymore, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be over overcooked. So, oh,
Herbert Lui 31:30
man, that was beautiful. That the whole thing just now that might be, we might need to, like, that’s a highlight, right there. Okay, to I’ll go traverse chronological. So what you said, first of all, can totally understand. But there’s a I’ll say this too, and
it was definitely a me thing. It was not a them thing. It was a me thing. And I take full responsibility and accountability for that meaning, like it was very clear to me that, yes, the style and the taste. Here’s the thing, everyone else on the team read the same stuff. Probably came from a similar working background. Ish, right? Like, you know, studied, studied writing in college and stuff, sure. And had, you know, very, you know, to be very fair. Also had much more pure like writing editorial experience than I did, and so there’s no way I could fairly look at them and be like, Okay, you guys don’t know what you’re talking about, because you do right? Like, it’s all the facts are there. And so to me, I’m like, well, then it’s a me thing, like, for sure. And it was very difficult for me to reconcile the emotion I you know what you said? Do you know who I am? The Have you watched that Nicolas Cage movie? Oh, the unbearable weight of Yes, of massive talent, yes, exactly, exactly. There’s a moment in it where his character is like, like, the alter ego is like, I’m Nicholas.
That’s how I love that movie. First of all, I like way more than I probably should have. Like, I don’t think it was one of those you’re supposed to like this movie kind of thing, but I loved it so, so I knew it was me. That’s the first point that I want to make. And I think this the second point was, then it became confusing, because it was like, Wait, but they do know what they’re doing. And I think the story I had to feed more and more was like, Look, you’re good, they just happen to be also really good, if not better. So this is an opportunity now to get better as a writer, right? You want to pick the stories that are good for you. You want to pick you want to accept suggestions with open mindedness and also like, not assume like a malicious intention, even though, look, I felt hurt all the time, way more hurt than I should have, sure, and that is a sign, again, going back to what I was saying earlier, I didn’t have the muscle and the practice of taking creative feedback. So my my wife, Bernice, bless her, she studied at OCAD U right? She studied design, but she’s also a professional artist, so she knows what it’s like to do design critiques, to have your work chopped up completely in school. She’s like, you know, she’s gone through this since, since, like, over a decade ago. So she’s, you know, and I would obviously talk to her about this stuff, and she she also made it clear it’s like, well, like, maybe, you know, you need some more practice taking feedback from people. And I was like, I think that’s exactly it. And so the process of learning to take the feedback and like split up my self worth from my work was incredibly, incredibly like that is what that was a process and journey of Now that being said, I still hated it, as I want to emphasize. Is, first of all, the reconciliation of these emotions and feeling hurt does not mean those people were trying to hurt me. I think they were all really great people. I think they were all trying to do their job, and the company and the culture really forced all of us to be really stressed all the time, really anxious all the time, and really stretched and pushed us to our limits, and so it’s not a great creative space to work from. And I really genuinely believe this when I say, if I worked with the same team at a different company, we’d be a much better team, much more harmonious, and I think the work would be better for it as well. I agree, and I really do appreciate all the things I learned from them, you know, when we’re not editing together, like happiness, you know, like, can get along really well all this stuff. So, yeah, all that’s just to say that I still feel like I’m still integrating and, like, still wrapping all that together. But that was the that was what I learned about myself, and that was, like an area that I was like, Okay, I need to either accept this as part of the job, or I need to go find, like, a different project to work on.
Hamza Khan 36:13
You touched on something super important here, right? I absolutely feel that, like I everything that I’m saying here, I hope it’s not coming across as like, I’m bashing Pearson, that is, couldn’t be further from the truth. And you’re not bashing this organization that you read the truth. I mean, we’ve been very upfront in saying that this is how we’re internally processing and experiencing this in our very empathetic Virgo ways, right? You’re a Virgo. Oh, yeah, we talked about this, right? Yeah. At some point we’re gonna have to just like, Bring, bring on a therapist as, like, a third,
Herbert Lui 36:48
for sure, bro.
Hamza Khan 36:50
Like to quote one of my favorite lines from this obscure, I suppose, but not obscure for millennial men, I guess, the Street Fighter movie with Raul Julia. You know, the day that bison graced your town was the greatest day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday, right?
Herbert Lui 37:11
That’s new. That’s new to me. Man, that’s cool,
Hamza Khan 37:14
though that’s a crazy line, like M Bison is just basically being like, yeah, yeah, it was the thing that was so impactful for you. For me, was just such a casual afterthought, just another day. And I think that from my editor’s perspective, them providing this cascade of scathing critiques was just them doing their job to your point. Because the thing that separates, you know, my books from being the Amazon bestseller to being this book, Pearson, that is in hundreds of 1000s of schools, millions, 10s of millions of copies being sold, is that Pearson has a very high editorial standard. They have, they have investors that they have to, you know, meet their expectations. It has to be it has to meet the standards of educational institutions across the world. It has to be able to be used by elite scholars, so on and so forth and so like I think that I came out of this process, even though my ego took a hit. It goes back to this idea of iron sharpening iron. I was part of a crucible. I was part of this team where there was a lot of intensity, a lot of pressure, a lot of pain at times. But I think I came out better as a writer for it. I came out better as an entrepreneur, as somebody who has books that are deserving of being updated. I came out of this experience reeling, but ultimately I feel, I feel more competent because I went through it. And you know, this reminds me, I was listening to a podcast once. I can’t remember which basketball player it was, but he was a bench player, and he was getting chirped by the hosts. I really have to find this one. And they’re like, yeah, man, you know, how does it feel like being a bench player? You rarely come off the bench, so on and so forth. And he’s like, just, just so we’re clear. I think it was, I think was at Toronto, Raptors anyway. Sorry, I’m losing, I’m losing the point here. But he said, Just so we’re clear. I’m a bench player in the NBA, but you can drop me onto any basketball court in the world, and I’m smoking people.
Herbert Lui 39:08
Dude, for real.
Hamza Khan 39:09
Man, what I mean? That’s how I feel. It’s like, sure, I got my ass handed to me as part of this editorial process at Pearson, but best believe you drop me into any other writing room in the world, and I’m I’m definitely not in the bottom half like I, you know, right? If you know, you know 100% so 100% of this 100% much better as a writer for having gone through this process, because you got to experience that crucible and the pressure that came from it, and you were able to hold your own for as long as you did while you were there. Not only did you hold your own, you actually produced. You actually created material that has gone out into the world that has your name on it, like nobody can take that away. And maybe from this process, you incorporate the very best, and you respectfully disagree with and compartmentalize or dispense with the things that aren’t serving you because the. Last thing you want to do here, dude, is edit yourself to the point where there’s nothing left. Because if you make your identity now tied up with this experience, and you start telling yourself, like, I love that you said, what you tell yourself, if you tell yourself, I’m not good enough. I, you know, my the way I I sort of like, let’s just pick like, something that I think is characteristic of your writing. Like, of your writing. The place in my writing in which I interject the insight that I’m going to respond to happens too late, based on what this one editor said, then suddenly your content doesn’t feel like it’s coming from you anymore. It loses the signature touch that people have come to love and appreciate. So this one editor’s or editorial team’s feedback, it doesn’t define your work, and you can respectfully disagree with it
Herbert Lui 40:51
in the same way that Francis Ford and karkapola is disagreeing with all of the critics right now, right? He’s saying, He’s saying, I hear you. You’re You’re entitled to your opinion, but in order for this work to be authentically mine, I respectfully disagree I afford you grace go on your way most of the time when you just go for it doesn’t turn out to be a banger. It turns out to be something like this, which I think he’s spent, like a lot, you know, his own he spent his own budget on this so that he could have complete creative control exactly, and he’s just gonna put it out there. And I don’t think it feels great for him to get panned, but I also think, you know what, at the end of the day, if you’re an artist, I if you’re an artist, you need to say what you want to say. And you know, when you’re working a job, that might not be the best possible way for you to do that right? You’re saying what the business needs you to say, or the team needs you to say, or whatever it is. But when you’re an artist, the most important thing is to be able to communicate what you want to communicate, and to do things the way you want to do it, to your standard, to your expression, and nothing else really matters that much. That’s a definition of an artist that I’m cribbing from. This recording artist. He’s, you know, does a lot of other things, entrepreneur, Ryan Leslie. If you listen to the combat Jack interview from 2014 first of all, I’m a huge Ryan Leslie fan, so I’m really quoting an archive. But he, he says this thing, which is wild to me.
So for people who aren’t sure, because Ryan is not, he’s, you know, he’s not a I would say that on that podcast, he even said this himself. He’s like, I have had zero commercial success, which was like mind blowing to me. I’m like, Whoa, that that’s like, a hard thing to say to yourself, first of all, but second of all, like, someone who’s working at that caliber, Ryan Leslie, best known, probably for making cassie’s Me and you, you know, very well known for many other hits you be killing them by fab. There’s like Fly, fly together. You know, there’s a lot of hits that he’s worked on for other people. And then he’s also had his own moment, right? He got nominated for a Grammy. He made a couple of hits, like mainstream hits in Oh, nine maybe. But he’s assessed his career as not having any commercial success, which I don’t think is entirely true, but yes, okay, the numbers are not like he’s worked on hits that’s made so many more numbers, and he’s been around much more popular artists with more commercial success. So he’s like, okay, cool, my success hasn’t lived up to that. But also, like later in the interview, or maybe earlier, I’m not sure, but he’s like, that’s what he says. He’s like, look, as long as you’re an artist, when you’re an artist, you don’t care about the commercial success. That really shouldn’t matter as much. What matters is, are you saying what you want to say? Are you doing the things you want to do? Does your music sound like what you want it to sound like? And I think that that’s really the key to being an artist, and that is really difficult to uphold because you’re trying to pay the bills with your art, or you’re trying to gain increase your status and your prestige with your art, or you’re trying to get a, you know, good performance review with your art, that’s that’s going to be very that emphasis and need for the external results makes it really difficult for you to let go and let loose and be open to taking in feedback. It makes it very difficult for you to be vulnerable with the work and with seeing how you really feel and with expressing it. I’m going to be honest with you, even though I write every day at my blog, herbertlui.net, my last name is lui. So even though I write every day at my blog, there’s still and that is a daily practice in not hiding, in not creating opacity. Right by default, we have opacity because we’re not live streaming all the time. That sounds super hectic. Yeah, so that is a daily breakdown of a wall and but even then, I still feel like I’ve only started to chip away at that and this at. Episode, really, we’re getting kind of meta here now, but this episode really has left me feeling, whoa. Like, I didn’t realize how much I didn’t talk about at my blog. A, because I don’t know if that’s a place for it, but also, B, like, I just didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, and I didn’t also didn’t want to, like, I wanted to maintain professionalism, of course, when we’re working there, but, you know, I plan to keep a relationship with these people after because they again, like, were super supportive in their own ways when we worked there together, and they really, like, I don’t actually think they they were trying to be hurtful or anything, and they’re all really good at what they do. I do respect them and admire them
Hamza Khan 45:42
a lot. Let me offer you this tell the story more, because it is not their story, it is your story. You worked with them, and I know you want to protect their identities, and you can be artful about doing that. You absolutely can. But the experience of going through that is something that I think is powerful, and I think it’s unveiling itself right now in this episode right we’re talking openly about what it’s like to be us, and if you’re familiar with Herbert and myself, maybe you’ve come to learn about us or even appreciate and subscribe to our output, which is usually quite polished. And so through this recording, through this experience of putting together new material, you’re watching essentially behind the scenes, like we’re lifting, we’re lifting the hood here, and giving you access to the messy, convoluted, you know, very Virgo doubting, yeah. I mean, this episode two is called imposter syndrome. Like, how much more raw Do you want to get here? Right? It’s we’re openly acknowledging that this is how we feel. But I like the Ryan Leslie idea. I want to just come back to that he’s having a moment right now, like he was on drink champs. And I wanted
Herbert Lui 46:52
to ask you, if you watched that, oh my god, loved it. Loved it.
Hamza Khan 46:55
I haven’t gone all in. But what’s really cool is that we’re seeing the zeitgeist change. The times are changing, and I think that, like, the public going bad on Drake is part of this reaction to the hollowness of commercial success. They’re looking at somebody like Drake who’s had, you know, he his his volley right now is like, yeah, you know, Kendrick won this, but like, I’m still the most streamed artist, blah, blah, blah, and like, the generation has just moved on. They’re like, we don’t actually care about this shit. These are vanity metrics. Nobody. Metrics. Nobody actually equates this with, with tangible, lasting success. I wish I could bend Drake’s here and be like, Yo, man, I got a strategy for you, bro. Like,
Herbert Lui 47:30
just what’s the strategy?
Hamza Khan 47:32
The strategy is RnB shift. Like, just, actually, just go back into RnB like you. I remember in the CBC interview, you said this is what you wanted to do. You wanted to finish your career like Marvin Gaye, now is the time to start that transition. People will love you for it. I have met Drake fans in 2024 who are unaware of the beef. And I’m like, that’s perfect, right? Serious, because their access to Drake is not the wraps they like. Just hold on, we’re going home, right? Like, God’s plan. I don’t, I know dude, and so I’m like, you have this whole other world you can tap into. But the point I wanted to make is that the zeitgeist is changing, and someone like Drake is now starting to feel anachronistic. But what happens when the zeitgeist changes and now people want, you know, true artistry. They want, you know, songwriting prowess. They want entrepreneurial flair, someone like a Ryan Leslie, who has stayed true to his craft, is now starting to appreciate with time, and he’s like, started stepping into a second career by being a purist. And I imagine that there are many artists right now who would say that Ryan Leslie is their favorite artist. He is, like your favorite artist, he is the secret ghost writer. Or maybe not. Maybe he’s even credited as powering the work of other people, and he revels in that. No doubt, you know, he said, I don’t have any commercial hits to your point, but I’m staying true to who I am. And what’s really interesting about all the criticism being heaped on France’s foreign karkapoli right now is that it’s coming from Joe in Minnesota, right? I’m not saying like Minnesota or Joe their their perspective is any less valid, but France is not thinking about them like Joe from Minnesota is not in his purview at all. It’s coming from, you know, 1000s of IMDb users and Rotten Tomato audience scores. That doesn’t matter to him, but what matters to him is what his peers say, because he is creating in that crucible, and you know what his peers are saying? Spike Lee loves it. Spike Jones loves it. Guillermo del Toro can’t stop thinking about it. Steven Soderbergh said it’s one of the most important films ever made on American soil. Like Francis is hearing that music.
Herbert Lui 49:40
Check this out. Man, you really sold it for me. Man, you really sold me a megalopolis. I got to check this thing out,
Hamza Khan 49:46
but I’ll tell you why, right. So shout out to my barber. JJ, right, my boy, this guy, he wrote, he sent me a post on Reddit. He’s like, bro, what is this movie? Why is it getting trashed? I’m like. JJ, like, just, I don’t think the movie’s for you, bro, dude, do not go into this because you went into civil war. Or by Alex Garland thinking it was going to be like a shoot ’em up. But what you really got was, like a very introspective look at, like the role that journalism plays in the transition of power. And like, he was disappointed. I’m like, bro, you are not ready for megalopolis, because this thing opens with like a Roman scroll, like, and this the Wow. In my opinion, this movie should not have gone to theaters, but I’m so glad that it did, and it was in IMAX for one week, but because there was nobody watching it, they pulled it, and I was one of the six people, dude. I was one of six people at Scotiabank theater in Toronto watching megalopolis on IMAX. It was fantastic. Anyways, I’m hyping this up too much. Wow. Let’s come back to it and let’s see if we can, like, put a bow on it and move into the next segment, which is, did Francis Coppola feel imposter syndrome when putting together megalopolis? Probably not, if I had to guess, probably not, because he was creating art. However, let’s say Marvel hired Francis Coppola to make the Eternals too of course, he’s going to feel imposter syndrome, because he is going to get battered down by the Marvel machine time and again, being like, no, don’t do this. The formula needs this. This character needs that. It was going to be too many creative voices, too many cooks in the kitchen. I think knowing Francis and the auteur that he is, he would have distanced himself from the process being like I put something out there into the world. It met Marvel’s expectations. It didn’t meet my expectations. And I think that he would have similar feelings to you and I coming off our respective editorial processes. But given his auteur status, he would have incorporated that very quickly and said, I took the very best these were the best lessons I learned, and I got rid of the rest. Case in point, when we worked with Sasha van Hoven at 90 9u i subjected myself to her editorial process because I knew it was coming from a good place. Not only was she looking after 99 you, she was also trying to help me as a burgeoning author, and I allowed myself to be critiqued by her. In fact, I sought it out, and she gave me very valuable critique. She took the time to explain in detail why she was recommending the changes that she did, and I willingly encountered criticism, and I became a better writer for it. And then I got to decide when I wanted that criticism to stop affecting my identity. And that happened specifically when somebody else entered the equation. I think it was a guy named Sean. Sean. I can’t remember his last name, but he became Sasha’s boss at one point, and then this guy started critiquing my writing. And I’m like, I see what you’re saying. I’m not gonna accept it like it’s it doesn’t feel authentic to me. So that was the moment where we decided to just go in different directions. Because I’m like, I like the way I’m writing right now. It’s resonating with me. It’s resonating with my audience. Sasha likes it. There’s good energy here, but this new guy is entering the mix right now, offering critiques that I don’t think are valid, and that’s okay. Your your perspective is valid. Mr. Sean, so is mine, and we can choose not to work together here. So that was the moment where I decided to, you know, split off. I’m like, am I going to continue producing design that I don’t believe in? Or from here on out, do I start to own my own voice, which has stayed with me for the last nearly 15 years, since we started working on
Herbert Lui 53:15
that I love that, man. This is the episode
Hamza Khan 53:16
of monologs. They were just going off. I love that.
Herbert Lui 53:19
I mean, I love that this was a, this was a special one man. I think I’m really glad that I didn’t imagine the topic going here in this way. But I guess that’s the process of new material really. Hamza, if someone is wrestling with creative imposter syndrome right now, let’s you know, it could be at work. It could be maybe even when they’re starting their own thing, and they’re like, I have no idea what I’m doing. Like, I probably shouldn’t even be doing this. This is so silly. Maybe they didn’t even study like you. You said you did an undergrad in English, lit, is that? Right? Yeah, they that’s an art degree. Like, they might not even have a degree in art, right? They might have studied business like me, or science or something. What? What advice would you have for someone like that, or what statements or maybe prompts would you suggest to them to consider as they’re working through this very torturous process of doubting yourself and experiencing that?
Hamza Khan 54:18
Oh, what a question, man. That is a that was a that was a powerful question. If you could win any award for that question, I would say it would be the I got a lot of cheese award, right?
I was not gonna, I was not gonna miss the opportunity. And I mean, like, cheese in both ways, like it was, like a such a feel good question. I’m so glad you asked that. Man, that’s like a, yeah. It makes me so happy. Um, wow. I’m having a moment here, because. Uh, this is kind of the answer that I wish I heard when I was going through my imposter syndrome early in my career, which was amazing. It’s not your voice, man. Like the voice that you’re hearing that is critiquing your work or your potential work is actually not your voice. You have internalized the environment. You have allowed somebody else’s perspective to permeate your being, for better or for worse, and often, I would say for worse, especially if the imposter syndrome is preventing partial or complete materialization. Let me explain a little bit more. Wow, how imposter syndrome manifests in me in 2024 is it prevents me from actually hitting publish. It prevents me from hitting send. It prevents me from writing. It prevents me from standing up and speaking with my chest. That’s when it’s unhealthy, because I should be showing up more. I should be like you. Herbert, publishing every single day, but I have a hard time showing up because I’m always doubting my abilities. I’m always doubting my ability to write, my ability to be consistent, my ability to do this, this and that. And until very recently, until actually this past week, I’ve had a voice undercutting all of my output, all of my potential output. And that voice was not my own. That voice belongs to a monster manager that I had 10 years ago, around the time that we met. And this monster manager micromanaged me, micromanaged me to the extent where he would actually print out my emails and, like, circle things and being like, Yeah, dude, it was, it was, it was a guy that’s terrifying, I know, and so that experience stays with you, especially when you idolize this person, and you hand over as much power as you do. The way I handed over power to Sasha, thank God. God, bless her. She used that power for my benefit. She actually took that held that held me and made me better when I gave power to this person, this monster manager. He abused it. He made it about himself, and it wasn’t about my benefit. He was just actually trying to get rid of me. In hindsight, he was trying to fire me and trying to make my life miserable. But the point is that stayed with me, and so my advice would be this number one, if you are experiencing imposter syndrome, do an inventory and interrogate whether that voice is your own or it belongs to somebody else. If I had to wager, it probably belongs to somebody else, it probably it’s probably associated with a time or times where you have been made to feel smaller. So really take the time to dig deep and the way that Herbert and I have unpacked in this episode, have a dialog with yourself. Have a dialog with your with your with your friend, have a dialog with your partner, and really, you know, maybe even with a therapist. Try to reverse engineer where this voice is coming from. For me, I’ve learned that this voice is coming from that monster manager, Herbert. I’m not sure we haven’t gone as deep in this. And if we have some time, I’d love to hear sort of like how that voice sounds in your head, in your heart. Do that number one, create an index of where that voice is coming from. Know where that is. Visualize your imposter, and then tell your imposter, I need you out of the way like you might not. Get rid of it completely. Smeagol is still there, but instead of being on my back, instead of holding on to me, I use some, you know, elvish ropes that I tie Smeagol to a tree, and I’m like, Dude, I need to do a keynote for 45 minutes. Can you just chill over there so I can go up here and be myself? Right? It’s like, Smeagol, you can come back after and you can, like, tear apart my work in my private moments, but not when I need to go and show up. So don’t let your inner imposter get in the way of you materializing fully or even partially, the things that are in your heart, design or art.
Herbert Lui 58:45
I love that man. I love all of that. What you were saying about that dialog and being able to bring every part of yourself together, to work with, to work in harmony. Basically, there’s something really powerful about that. It reminds me of, like, the inside out kind of console, and all the emotions, yeah, all the emotions are working together to achieve one goal, right? Like, that’s like the that’s the dream. And I think that a lot of times for me, at least, it feels like my default emotion, like just just like, kind of like takes over and like does its thing. And I think that it’s very important to be able to stay calm, like, step back and assess, as you said, Hey, who’s Whose voice is this and whatnot. I think for me, the you asked about the voice, the voice really comes out in a very angry way. I think
Hamza Khan 59:53
I alluded to that before, like, like, anger seems to be one of your your like, the voices that is part of that cons. All,
Herbert Lui 1:00:00
yes, like anger for a good while before therapy, I started therapy January of 23 right on and and before that, anger was like the dominant, like core emotion of my life, and I didn’t even realize it. So I’ll say, for example, like it would feel like I just lose control of things, or like I would like say things that were very out of character for me, sure, people who knew me well, like, Well, no, oh, he kind of gets like this or whatever. But that’s not like a that’s just not like a good way to behave. It’s not a good way to be around people and like more like, just as importantly, it was also really difficult for me to be like that. It was like, very painful. And so that’s where the, you know, whole other topic for another day. But that’s what the imposter syndrome often sounds like for me. And the anger is probably a mask for the you know, the anger serves as a fuel. Right? Anger is energy, and so it fuels. It served as a fuel to get through imposter syndrome, to get through doubt, to get through whatever, to get even, to get through like, all of the hurt from from external feedback. It because at the end of the day, I’m still shipping work, and I’m still getting this stuff done, but the anger can only go take me so far. It’s like, cool. It got me here. It’s not going to get me to where I want to go. And it was actually a very corrosive and destructive thing, if it, if it’s like the master, you know, like, I think at the end of the day, you as a person, need to be the master of of what you want your emotions to do and when to call upon certain ones, and also when to be like, okay, hold on. Like, you don’t you know, I’m gonna need you to sit navigation or, like, even in the back, because I’m driving this thing. And I think at the end of it, that’s kind of the same with imposter syndrome, right? Look, doing creative work is going to involve all of the things that you and I just talked about, all of the like, in some way, questioning self worth, even if you have complete. Everyone respects you. Yes, men are around you, all that stuff you’re still gonna think about and be like, man. Like, is this really any good? Or like, no, is everyone just saying it because they stand to make some money off this thing or whatever? Right? Like, you’re gonna experience these thoughts. And I think for me, what I realized was the emotion of doubt is actually there to make the work better, because if you don’t doubt yourself, then you’re not going to think twice about is this the best piece of work I can do? And is this can, how can I make it better? And by the way, there’s always a way to make it better. Yes, the doubt is actually much. It’s much more bearable to deal with. I don’t think I have as much of a competitive or adversarial relationship with it. Yep, I think I very much try to, I don’t know, maybe I’ve been reading a lot of Thich Nhat Hanh lately, but just embrace, embrace the suffering you know, embrace the doubt, embrace the not knowing, embrace the boredom, feeling like you plateaued, embrace all of it. Because that’s what comes with creative work, especially if you want to go pro and I mean, even if you want to do it as a hobby, it still comes with your creative work, and that’s usually a sign you’re heading in the right direction, unfortunately. So it means, like, the painful process of working through the doubt and be like, oh wow. Like, I really did make this thing a lot better. And it was like, complete hell. And and so the the question is, can you do all of those things? Can you take feedback? Can you experience the doubt and sit with it? Can you work hard to make it better and sit with the uncertainty of, I don’t know where this is going to go? Can you do all of that in a way that isn’t hellish and with people and in an environment that also isn’t well, that is a good fit for you, right? That isn’t a bad fit for you, right? The people, maybe they’re they know how to work with you. They know when to push, when to pull, right? And it’s very different, by the way, when, when you’re hiring a coach to do that, versus like that person is your boss, because your boss has their own pressures and their own things to deal with as well, right? Whereas a coach is like, look, my job is to help you get this thing out there in as you a way as possible, right? A boss is just like, Look, I need you to help me do my job, you know, like, that’s that’s like, so there are different ways of approaching that, and do not expect your boss to treat you the way a coach would, if they do great, that’s amazing, but I don’t think that’s a fair expectation for me to compare working with Rachel, with maybe my boss or my team, because, you know, Rachel was helping me try to find my voice and be me for creative doing, whereas the team was really we’re all working for the client, voice the. Company voice, and so that’s a very different objective. Anyway, all of that’s just to say imposter syndrome is a very it’s a label we use to name something that I don’t think is actually that unusual. And so I would say that it’s a it. I would be surprised if Francis Ford car Coppola did not experience imposter syndrome, and I think that, on the contrary, he probably experienced a lot and was like, I, you know, never tackled the project the size before, like, so on and so forth and stuff like that, you know,
Hamza Khan 1:05:36
yeah, you know, dude, you’re actually, you’re making me rethink, Mr. Mr. France, Mrs. Mr. Foreign car Coppola, right? I think that the fact that this movie is was conceived in 1977 but not made until 2024 actually indicates to me that there was tremendous for sure, imposter syndrome probably like, wow, I’m gonna watch it very differently tonight. No, but it’s possible that he just felt like, I’m not ready for it yet, and he just kept on getting to the point of, like, point of like it exists as a Paragon. In my mind, this is what I think the movie could be, and everything that I’m gonna do is gonna fall short of it. But then why did he decide this year to be like, fuck it. It’s happening. I’m doing it this year. It’s gonna come out, right? Because, to your point, it can always get better. I’m sure. Now that he’s put it, put out the work, he’s like, oh, you know, it’s still not perfect. I’m sure, in his mind, he’s like, it’s still not perfect. But this is as perfect as as it’s going to be right now, and there’s a constant striving. All of our favorite artists never truly retired. In fact, you know, Daniel Day Lewis just came out of retirement. Did you know that? Yeah, the man said,
Herbert Lui 1:06:38
I’m down. No idea. Yeah, yeah. He’s
Hamza Khan 1:06:39
like, I’m the nine. Is my last movie that I’m going to do, and now he’s back again, right? So I think that there’s, like, something about the artist spirit that always wants them to come back, and they’re always striving. They’re always like, ah, the Paragon is not quite there. Interestingly enough, man, my Paragon, for like, a public speaking experience, isn’t actually a public speaker. Like, there’s no speaker who I look at and I’m like, I Okay. I mean, there’s some thought leaders who I aspire to. Like, I would say somebody asked me the earlier this week, shout out to Marnie. She’s like, who’s like, whose career are you trying to emulate? Was it like the spirit of the question? I was like, like, straight up, it’s like, not anyone alive. It’s actually Abraham Maslow, because I know that, like, Hamza Khan as a as an entity, as a meat sack is going to disappear. But like I would, I would my soul would be happy looking down from the heavens hopefully being like, yeah, man. But like the Hamza’s model, the equivalent of hierarchy of needs has lived on. Like, I want to be able to package an idea into as accessible of a heuristic available to everybody. So that’s my Paragon. But coming back to performance, for instance, you know, earlier this week, I did a couple of talks, and one of the talks that I did was pretty cool. It was for cphr, Alberta, and I tried out a whole bunch of new things, new material. Ha, new material. And it was 100% new material. And dude standing ovation. And it was kind of surreal. I know, I know, I know, I know, dude. And I walked off the stage being like, that was so cool, man. Like, let’s just figure out how this happened. Let me put it all together. And then I was like, man, but you know what, as good as it felt, it’ll never feel as good as it might be to be Drake in 2014 at the Would you like a tour, tour where there was that big sort of like blue circle, and he steps up, and he does Tuscan leather for the first time, and the lights go black, and they open up, and suddenly he’s just standing there, and he’s not moving. And I’m like, oh, and like to hear the audience cheer and yell. I’m like, Ah, there’s levels to this shit. But you know what, dude, one can try, one can strive, and I might always fall short of that ideal, but as a creative I’m just going to continue to move in that direction. I’m going to continue to move in that direction, and there’s going to be output, and I’m going to do it angry, I’m going to do it afraid, I’m going to put shit out there, and it’s going to be mid but there’s going to be a constant, iterative striving that’s going to happen towards what I believe can be the best version of my production.
Herbert Lui 1:09:03
I love that. I think what you said there was so important, which was an ideal, right? I think for for people, especially just starting off doing creative work, you have a vision of where you want things to go, or a vision of who you want to be, like a sense of wishful identification, almost, and and and you’re gonna fall so far short of that, both in terms of, like, the literal project work, and be, like, so disappointed in what you’re doing right now. And also, like, you know, the legacy of where you want to go. I think I have this, like, mental model, or like this, this analogy or thought, where I’ll say it like this. This is a story on my blog, and I forget where I got it. I think I got it from 4000 weeks by Oliver Berkman. And basically, there’s an architect. He’s the world’s best architect, and he, he. Came up with the best possible, like building. He imaginable, right? He’s like, This is amazing. I’ve got in the plans. And people travel around the world to see it. Kings, queens are trying to acquire it. And ultimately, what he ends up doing is he, he burns the plans because he cannot stand the idea of having somebody put the building together and they’re inevitably going to mess it up right. And whereas, if it just stays a plan and a vision in his brain, then it stays perfect. And I think the what I used to take away from that was, oh, that’s, you know, just, just do the thing right, like this, architect should have just sucked it up, and the world could have, could have been happier with a really cool building. But then I also thought, You know what? That’s the architect’s choice. You’re also allowed to have something that’s so precious to you, that remains an ideal, that’s just for you, and you’re just not going to show anyone else. And that’s part of the that’s one of the best parts of being a creative you know, like a lot of the the literature we have now, what the way they were published was, after someone passed away, there are these private journal entries or letters, and they’re like, Please burn these. And the person who decided to burn these, decided to be a horrible friend or family member, but a really generous person the rest of the world and go like, you know what? I’m going to publish these, because these are really good, and we have so much wisdom into into someone’s insight and experience that otherwise would have been lost. So, you know, I think there’s something really interesting about being okay with not living up to your ideal most of the time, and then, like, you know, what, if you happen to live up to it, or if you want to protect your ideal, then don’t publish it. And be okay with that too, because that’s the only way to keep it perfect in your brain and to keep it as, like, a fantasy is just going to remain a fantasy. You know, it’s, it’s the second it touches reality, it’s going to be messy.
Hamza Khan 1:12:06
Well, well said. And Herbert, man, I first of all shout out to you for being patient and going over time here, and shout out to the materialists listening to this and watching this. You’re, you’re aware that Herbert and I have been trying to wrap up the episode for the last half an hour, this is exactly no but this is exactly why we started the podcast, because this is now flowing like this is exactly what a conversation sounds like. And Herbert and I get together, I think I just want to, I want to add here, and I’m not going to pretend like this might not lead into other conversations and extend the podcast, but like, let’s just keep cooking until we feel like it’s natural to wrap this up. What you just described here is OOF man, like this ties in so perfectly with episode one. So Episode One was kid, see ghost writers. Episode Two is everything. I’m not. And I think that this is the moment where we can tie it back to Episode One. You probably have material that you’re thinking about putting out there, and let’s just use writing as one creative expression. Some of your best writing is something that you’ve been thinking about. You’ve been thinking about putting together an autobiography, a memoir, or maybe write a piece of fiction. Just be careful, right? Because you can be part of your imposter syndrome can convince you to part with that idea prematurely. Your imposter syndrome might say this idea is not all that. Let me just go and turn this into an article for this blog, or let me, you know, publish this in a half assed way, but like, trust your instincts if your imposter syndrome is getting in the way of you putting something out there. Maybe also pay attention to the flip side of that emotion, which is like, why are you feeling so protective of this idea? Maybe you cherish this idea a lot more. And that UN the example that you gave her a bit of like, unfinished works that are, you know, found by the estate. Maybe those were, like, Magnum opuses, oh, by waiting to be published, but just didn’t have a chance to manifest and materialize because of a finite lifespan. But there’s something over there, right? You’re actually encouraging me, in this moment right now, to not die with my music still inside of me, like there’s at least two more books that I want to write, but my imposter syndrome, up until this episode, has been getting in the way, like I and how that’s manifesting is like, rather than writing, I’m just compiling more notes, gathering more links, and I’m like, at this point, I’m just procrastinating at this point. At this point, I am doing busy work to convince myself that I’m making progress here, but the progress will not be made until I actually write down the first word for this book, and then once I’ve written the first word, it won’t matter what I’m doing until I’ve written the second word and the third word, so I actually just have to write now and get over my own shit. And this book might be commercially a flop. You know, this book might not become a best seller. Nobody might buy this book. Maybe. I’ll have like, you know, five purchases, and you know, one of them will be Herbert, the other will be my wife, Bailey, and the other three will be me, right? That might happen, but the zeitgeist might shift. And maybe 50 years from now, somebody reads this book and they’re like, Oh, my God, this was so ahead of its time. It’s the equivalent of, you know, what 2001 A Space Odyssey was. And I’m not saying that. You know my book is going to reach that level of commercial success, but or critical success, but that exists as a paragon, that exists as the ideal. And all that matters right now is that whatever you’re feeling when it comes to imposter syndrome, you just push through that. You interrogate it, you understand it, you map out the feeling, but you push through it. Do it afraid. Do it, angry, just do it.
Herbert Lui 1:15:45
I love that. I think it is something really it is. I think the question is, are you okay with the things you have left to say, not and not saying them right? Because life is not guaranteed. Right tomorrow is not guaranteed. And I also can relate to the research thing. It’s just like I’ve always been under the impression that quality can be used as an excuse to procrastinate, and I’m just as guilty. I’m also working on new book. Spent way too much time compiling notes, doing research, not that it’s a horrible thing, because I could afford to do it, but also it was like, okay, but I want to do a lot more books than one every four years. And this, this pace isn’t really working for me. I think one story I came across recently was the parable of, like, the Boilermaker or whatever. And there’s a Picasso version of this. I also blogged about this, but it’s like, basically, okay, we’ll use the Picasso one, because this is newman.net Thank you, man. So look, there’s a, there’s a there’s a woman who sees Picasso at a restaurant, and she said, Oh, my God, it’s Picasso. I love Picasso. And and so she goes up to Picasso say, hey, excuse me. Love your work. Really, respect you like and Picasso say, Oh, thank you. And the woman’s like, can you actually draw me a sketch of something, anything? And Picasso’s like, sure. Takes a napkin, you know, grabs a pencil five, takes 30 seconds, and, just right, scribbles something together and draws something very Picasso and and he hands it to her, and like, Thank you, that’ll be $10,000 and the woman’s like, what that was that took you 30 seconds? And he was like, No, that took me 40 years, and that’s, I think that’s the thing that I tell myself, specific to the research thing, right? But also, you know, whenever I’m feeling like, Oh, this isn’t ready yet, or I’m not sure about this yet, or things like that, I think about, look, I’ve lived for I’ve now done. I’ve been in my career for over a decade. I’ve lived for over 30 years now. Yeah, and even, like, even if I took two months, three months, to do a book, I think something would interesting would come out of it, especially if I leaned in to my prior lived experiences. I have a friend this, this great executive coach, Jason Shen, S, H, E N, his whole thing is, in order for these people to succeed, these outliers to succeed. We actually, I count myself among them outliers he defines it, or my understanding of how he defines it is there. There are people who don’t really fit in the norm of things right, like, either, you know, just don’t fit in with dominant culture, or maybe don’t fit in with like standards for what, what’s normal, maybe neurodivergent, maybe whatever, right, and, and we actually often need to do, like, to adhere to really different rules than what the system. He uses the word system in it, and we need to adhere to different rules and what the system provides. And so that’s what this really beautiful, small book, weirdly brilliant, is about. He did it in 30 days. And when he told me he wanted to do a book in 30 days, I was like, No way, right? Like, I’m gonna. I didn’t say this to Jason, because I’m, you know, I respect Jason a lot. I didn’t want to hurt his confidence. But at the time, I was like, No way. 30 days probably not worth reading, right? Like, yeah. And so he gave me the book, and I looked at it, and I was like, Yo, this is, like, really good now and and that’s why I’m so glad I didn’t say that to Jason, because, you know, I mean, Jason would have done it anyway, because he’s strong like that, and he, you know, he’s, he knows what he wants to do. But also, like, I was wrong. I was like, Oh my gosh, this book that Jason cooked up in 30 days completely broke my assumptions of what I thought writing was. And writing a book meant, don’t get don’t get me wrong, I think, you know, it could have used a proofreading polish in past. But I was also like, very much, like, you know what? Like, I actually don’t really mind the, you know, the repeat word or the typo, like, it’s very occasional, first of all, and second of all, it’s just, it’s also the book is called weirdly brilliant. And this little book is weirdly brilliant itself. Like, it’s like, it was amazing. Like, I was like, when does that happen? And so, you know, I wrote about weirdly brilliant my blog too, but I just wanted to put that out there and be like, look like that 30 day thing. And watching Jason go through that really helped feed I don’t know what the opposite of imposter syndrome is, but like, whatever that aspect is, like that that’s what it helped feed. For me. I was like, wow. Like, like, I’ve definitely done enough research, but also like to see that someone could make something so great in so such a short amount of time, was really nice. Wow,
Hamza Khan 1:20:58
there. If there was an imposter syndrome inverse. It would be like creative amplification or something like that. Dude, this is a full circle moment. Let me see if I can actually wrap this up here, not because I see it so clearly, right? So this guy, Jason, he respects you. He respects your perspective. He’s a friend, for sure. Yes, okay, good friend, good friend. Now here’s the thing, if you did say to Jason, if you projected your limiting beliefs, and forgive me for describing them so harshly, they are limiting beliefs. If you projected your limiting beliefs that a quality book can’t be written in 30 days onto Jason, the risk existed that Jason would have internalized that message and been like, oh shit, somebody who I respect, who I admire, who is a published author, Best Selling Author, Herbert, is telling me that this can’t be done, and suddenly his inner voice would be a composite of his doubts about the book, right? But they wouldn’t have been his voice. It would have been your voice that would have prevented him from putting out the book. You know what I mean? So that is, that is the moment where, like, you see, hopefully, what has materialized for you materialists, is the genesis of how innocuously creative criticism can lead to imposter syndrome. I think what we just touched on here is like a fine line, and kudos to you for not giving that to him, because in his vulnerable state, he could have internalized that, and that would have prevented us from having this beautiful realization, this materialization, if you will.
Herbert Lui 1:22:24
I appreciate that, man. I love it. And I think that, like, you know, it’s when you have friends around you who are trying to do things you got to be supportive like and do not like. You can be supportively critical and still also be supportive, right? Like, really emphasize, like, love the effort you’re putting into this. You’re going to do it. I think this one little thing could make it better and be specific, but very come, like, come from that place. You know, don’t be bringing people down and stuff, because that’s like, the opposite of a gift. You’re like, borrowing from your friend. And that’s the other thing too about imposter syndrome is like, and really, like any inner critic. Thing is, someone else says it to you once, but you hear it 1000 times. You know it’s like the most. It can be really painful. I have a related concept to this, which is, like the four inner beings of a writer, right? You have the the jester, the playful one, right? They’re like, they’re the one that, actually, they’re the only one that can make things. That’s their only superpower. Episode Three,
Hamza Khan 1:23:28
that’s it. Okay,
Herbert Lui 1:23:29
let’s do it. I think, hold on, let’s pause, let’s pause it here. Because I think you’re right. I think we kind of, like, we’re deviating here. Oh my gosh, it’s gonna, you’re gonna go into your movie, you know, like, it’s like,
Hamza Khan 1:23:42
this is great. Episode Three. Let’s mull on this. Let’s, let’s riff on the idea of the creative fool, the gesture, the the inner child. It’s, it’s beautiful. This is good. Such a natural progression, a to go from like Kitsy ghostwriters, the immaterial to like you’re to like like. Now that you’ve materialized, you’re editing yourself, and you’re reducing yourself back down to your core component. But what’s left once you’ve materialized, you’re that little infant, you’re that you’re that fool, you’re that playful, creative, demon, Goblin, Gremlin, whatever the case may be. Let’s save that for episode. This is sure, dude. This has been a lot of for sure, man. This has been so much fun. I’m so glad we’re doing this.
Herbert Lui 1:24:21
It’s been great. I want to close. Maybe this could be an interesting note to close on. I don’t know if it’s so what, and I can. I’m happy to start, maybe we list out some things we’re grateful for, for those experiences. Oh, yeah. So you’ve got your experience. I got my experience because, I mean, a, maybe there’s a people pleasing aspect of me that’s like, oh, in case they’re listening to this, oh, my god, yeah. Also to, you know, I think both you and I are very grateful we came out of it stronger. We came out of it better. And so let’s also like, let’s just try to throw it out there. Yeah, people listening to this, you know, go
Hamza Khan 1:24:56
for it. You first. For me, I
Herbert Lui 1:24:58
think I. Happy to go first. I think for me, I first of all, asides from meeting all the people and like getting to know them, which has been really great, even though the working experience was turbulent, sometimes I think that I’m super grateful for the voice and tone just I picked it up and I punched it up so hard, and there would be times where it’s still like, hey, this isn’t voicey Enough. This isn’t Tony enough. I’m like, I don’t even know what that means, but I think I actually, I think I actually came out of that with a much clearer understanding of what voice and tone generally is, and then also how to get mine to be much clearer. I think before I kind of like constantly, like, stole other people’s voices or tried, I tried on a bunch of different like, outfits, and really, I think from there, you know, it was both through this experience and working on creative doing whereas, like, very clearly, oh, I think I’ve like, found where I am, and I what aspects of this kind of voice and tone that I like. So that’s one thing. Second of all, I became much better at giving feedback as well, because when you receive really bad feedback, and there was particularly one person on the team who was who I their feedback style didn’t work for me, but there was another person on the team that whose feedback style really worked for me, like, and I can tell why, why they were like. They were just like they were, I think they taught as an instructor before it just really showed. And I was like, Oh my gosh, every single thing in this doc is like, super actionable, super clear, super like, How did I not see this? But also I want to write this down for the future. And and I realized I want to be that kind of editor. And so when you receive that kind of feedback, you can also give it much in a much more clear, specific and strong way, right? And the third, I mean, the add on to that is I became a much better editor throughout that process. I think for me, when I used to take in work, my standard for it would just be like, okay, cool. Like, let’s not go too far here, because, again, I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, especially the writers. And now I’m like, Does this need to do what it needs to do right? And does this, is this working right, like editing, very much as a feel kind of process. That’s another thing that I learned from this whole thing, one out of many lessons. But does this feel right? And in order for it to feel right, you really need to have a sense of, like, what, what the author’s trying to do, or at least even be clear on, hey, I don’t know what you’re really trying to I don’t know where this is going yet. Or Or like, this feels disconnected. This feels thin. This feels whatever, like it very much, is a feeling based process. And being able to lean into your, read, your feel of the thing, right? You might need to, you know, 111, smooth over. Might not be quick enough. You need to take two or three passes at it to really feel it out and be like, Oh, this, this almost feels whole. It’s just missing this thing here. That’s the thing that was really special to me, that I think also is harder to replicate with AI, like, it’s like, it’s very much, because it’s such a tacit and feeling based, there’s a feeling based dimension to being an editor. Sure, you know, if someone’s reacting all defensively to feedback, like, Oh, hold on, like, what’s going on? So they were super patient, and I’m super grateful for the chance to work with them. Shout
Hamza Khan 1:28:18
out to that was very, very gracious of you, man, this, this is reminding me of the Key and Peele skit, Obama anger translator. I think it can be Herbert. I’m gonna be Herbert’s anger translator. Let me be Herbert’s anger translator and just translate what he just said. This might offend my political connects, right?
Herbert Lui 1:28:40
Yo, what’s the J story? We knew. We knew. Why don’t you do your thing? And then we’ll close with that. Let
Hamza Khan 1:28:46
me close with the J story. Let me close the J story. Impostor syndrome, the recent iterations of my keynotes, there’s a point where I sort of like break from the visual style that people are used to. So I’m playing with like black and white, light and dark, and it’s very minimal. But there’s a point at which I talk about becoming my best self, and what that process looks like, what it looked like to materialize and visually, the slides change. And I talk about how I come from a long line of people who endured the legacy of colonization in in the motherland. I talk about growing up on the spirit of hip hop and stuff. So when I talk about the spirit of hip hop. The slides have typically been Jay Z, and then I did this keynote, and somebody comes up to me at the book signing, which is a whole other story. We should talk about that next week, right? I’m doing this book signing, and some lady comes up to me. She’s like, everything was great, except Jay Z’s canceled. Now, did you know that? And I was like, I was like, not yet, but it’s likely going to happen because of the whole Diddy freak off situation. Yeah, I know. I know I I hate
Herbert Lui 1:29:49
to say,
Hamza Khan 1:29:52
Hold on that new shit. Say, how come? Well, my old shit, buy my old album. That’s, that’s, that was my. Official statement on it. I know, I know it’s it’s not looking good. It’s not looking good. Oh yeah. So I so I have just, I have preemptively switched that slide to Kendrick Lamar, and I feel like such a for doing that
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Herbert Lui 0:00
So hard to get mine to be much clearer. I think before, I kind of, like, constantly, like, stole other people’s voices or tried, I tried on a bunch of different, like, outfits, and really, I think from there,
Hamza Khan 3:10
you do your thing, and then we’ll close with that. Let me close with the J story. Let me close the J story. Imposter syndrome, the recent iterations of my keynotes, there’s a point where I sort of like break from the visual style that people are used to. So I’m playing with like black and white, light and dark, and it’s very minimal. But there’s a point at which I talk about becoming my best self and what that process looks like, what it looked like to materialize and visually the slides change, and I talk about how I come from a long line of people who endured the legacy of colonization in in the motherland, I talk about growing up on the spirit of hip hop and stuff. So when I talk about the spirit of hip hop, the slides have typically been Jay Z and then I did this keynote, and somebody comes up to me at the book signing, which is a whole other story. We should talk about that next week, right? I’m doing this book signing, and some lady comes up to me. She’s like, everything was great, except, uh, Jay Z’s canceled. Now, did you know that? And I was like, I was like, not yet, but it’s likely going to happen because of the whole Diddy freak off situation. Oh, yeah, I know. I know. I I hate to say
Say, how come on my old shit, buy my old album. That’s, that’s, that’s my official statement on it. Oh, I know, I know it’s, it’s, it’s not looking good. It’s not looking good. Oh, yeah. So I so I have just, I have preemptively switched that slide to Kendrick Lamar, and I feel like such a for doing that.
Herbert Lui
you know, it was both through this experience and working on creative doing, whereas, like, very clearly, oh, I think I’ve, like, found where I am and I what aspects of this kind of voice and tone that I like. So that’s one thing. Second of all, I became much better at giving feedback as well. Because when you receive really bad feedback, and there was particularly one person on the team who was who I their feedback style didn’t work for me, but there was another person on the team that whose feedback style really worked for me, like, and I can tell why, why they were like, they were just like they were. I think they taught as an instructor before it just really showed. And I was like, Oh my gosh, every single thing in this doc is, like, super actionable, super clear, super like, How did I not see this? But also I want to write this down for the future. And and I realized I want to be that kind of editor. And so when you receive that kind of feedback, you can also give it much in a much more clear, specific and strong way. And the third, I mean, the add on to that is I became a much better editor throughout that process. I think for me, when I used to take in work, my standard for it would just be like, okay, cool. Like, let’s not go too far here, because, again, I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, especially the writers. And now I’m like, Does this need to do what it needs to do right? And does this, is this working right? Like editing very much as a feel kind of process. That’s another thing that I learned from this whole thing, one out of many lessons. But does this feel right? And in order for it to feel right, you really need to have a sense of, like, what, what the author’s trying to do, or at least even be clear on, hey, I don’t know what you’re really trying to I don’t know where this is going yet. Or, or, like, this feels disconnected. This feels thin. This feels whatever like it very much is a feeling based process. And being able to lean into your, read, your feel of the thing, right? You might need to, you know, 111, smooth over. Might not be quick enough. You need to take two or three passes at it to really feel it up and be like, Oh, this. This almost feels whole. It’s just missing this thing here. That’s the thing that was really special to me, that I think also is harder to replicate with AI, like, it’s like, it’s very much, because it’s such a tacit and feeling based, there’s a feeling based dimension to being an editor. You know, if someone’s reacting all defensively to feedback, you’re like, Oh, hold on. Like, what’s going on? So they were super patient, and I’m super grateful for the chance to work with them.
Hamza Khan
Shout out to that was very, very gracious of you, man, this, this is reminding me of the George the Key and Peele skit Obama anger translator. I think it can be Herbert. I’m gonna be Herbert’s anger translator. Let me be Herbert’s anger translator and just translate what he just said, this might offend my political connects, right?
Herbert Lui
Yo, what’s the J story? We need it. Why
Hamza Khan
don’t
Like us. No, dude, yes, I’m, I was gonna, I was gonna put on a ovo Raptors hat today, and I’m like, I, I can’t do it. I just, I’m gonna have to. I. A lost one. Yeah, dude,
that’s the story. That’s the story. So look, it’s not an it’s not an official statement. My My position is still like, you know, let’s just wait to see how this plays out. I pray to God, Jay and Beyonce were not involved in this, but God forbid, if they were involved in this. I think that’s I’ve had a good run with. Stop managing, start leading. I’m gonna have to stop, stop promoting that because, like, a significant component of that is my love of Jay and rock nation. But, you know, it’s okay, the idea moves on. And I think that at some point in new material, we’ll talk about, like, separating the art from the artists and all that. But if I can just quickly add that was the J story. I just want to also celebrate the Pearson, the team involved in Pearson, the same way that Herbert was celebrating the lessons learned and the people that he worked with during that experience that we used as the keyhole to unpack imposter syndrome. For me, that was Pearson, I clearly stated who was involved in that. I’m glad that I went through that, because it has gifted me confidence in the things that make my writing uniquely Hamza like I now know, as a result of going through that the sediment that was left after the criticism were the things that are authentically part of my writing style. If you read my writing, then you know that I revel in in being prosaic. I revel in it being elaborate and eloquent and there being like a musicality to my writing. It’s even evident in the way that I speak. I enjoy deep cut Hip Hop movie, pop culture references, all of that. So thank you Pearson team for holding up a mirror to what I now know is part of my signature style. Number one. Number two, really cool to be able to work with a mentor. Man, if, if you haven’t had a chance to do that, Herbert, to write alongside a mentor, I’m like, Ah, you know what this is? This is probably what it felt like for like Drake to be writing with Jay, you know? So it was cool. It was like a magical one year of, like, the frequency of phone calls and texts and meetings with my mentor. I’m like, wow. In addition to being able to write with this person, I’m now, I’m now meeting them all the time and talking to them. So that was cool. And then the last one, just to flex a little bit, man, like, I got that Pearson logo now, you know, I got that CO sign, right? Like, I’m gonna have imposter syndrome until I actually become Dr Hamza Khan. When I do that, I’m looking forward to dropping the qualifier slides, and I call the qualifier slides that slides that, you know, they’re just a bunch of logos right now, so that people take me seriously. And they’re like, it’s not a dweeb. This guy actually knows what he’s talking about. But until that point, until that point, thinking they lions and tigers and bears, I go hunt and put heads on my fireplace. Okay, so I’m fumbling. I’m fumbling my closing here. But let’s just, let’s just, let’s just end it at that. Let’s just end at that. There’s like a big fire, big piercing up there. You know,
Herbert Lui
that was fire. Man, that was fire. All right. Well, thank you so much for listening to this. You got through the whole hour, 37 minutes of it, Hamza, thank you for the extra time as well. Of course, this was great. This was great, man, thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Hamza, for being part of this. This is great sharing too.
Hamza Khan
And while we’re at it, because we’re still very early, if you haven’t already subscribed, if you’re listening to this and you enjoy what you have to say, Please subscribe. Please like this on any platform that you found it at. Please give us a rating. All of this stuff is going to help us in the initial lift of the show, and tell your friends.
Herbert Lui
Tell your friends about it. All right, peace,
Hamza Khan
Peace.