Episode 3 summary:
In this episode of New Material, Herbert Lui and Hamza Khan continue their exploration of creative processes. Hamza shares his consistent 5am (!) wake up routine and tales from his recent travels, including a chaotic week of context-switching between family events and work. Herbert talks about his visits to The Met, his decision to stick to a pressing book deadline, and his revisiting of Virgil Abloh’s philosophy on creative work. They explore the playful aspect of creative work “The Idiot” (aka “The Fool”) in the creative process, emphasizing the importance of playfulness and spontaneity. Hamza reflects on his own creative odyssey, including his desire to return to music video production and the impact of playfulness on his public speaking. Herbert shares prompts from his book Creative Doing and his blog on remembering how to play and nurture your inner child.
Useful links:
- Chaotic Good by Rachel Jepsen
- Madman, Architect, Carpenter, Judge: Roles and the Writing Process by Professor Betty Flowers
- Make time to Play, a prompt from Herbert’s book Creative Doing
- Say Yes, a prompt from Creative Doing
- The four inner beings of a writer (via Herbert’s blog)
- 2.5 hours with Rising Green (via Herbert’s blog)
- Kids in the Front Row by Niklas Göke
Unedited transcript:
Editor’s note: This transcript was automatically generated by AI, and we have not edited below this sentence.
Herbert Lui 0:08
What’s New everyone? My name is Herbert Lui. I am an author of a book called Creative, Doing, working on the next one as well. I write every day at my blog. HerbertLui.net my last name is l, u, i You can’t spell Herbert like half the baristas in New York City. Then.
I’m also a marketing advisor. I work with a lot of companies on their marketing right now, one called FGX, First Global Express. You got it hardware, we’ll help you ship them across the world. That’s me, and I’m here, joined today by
Hamza Khan 0:51
by Hamza Khan, aka HK, aka Lion King, aka kill a Khan. Con Corleone, Bubbe, Larry incarnate, Hurricane Hamza, the prodigal son, the prodigal son to Electric Boogaloo, aka the real American Prometheus, aka now I become life, creator of worlds. I don’t know where that came from. I just got so hype. I’m gonna do an AKA for you, bro.
Herbert Lui 1:15
Let’s go. Nice.
Hamza Khan 1:16
Let’s go. This is Herbert, like, aka not Herbert Louie, aka that Rudy Tootie, fruity Louie. What I usually do this, that jump, stop, breathe, hooty hoo. I don’t know where that came from. I could do the rest of the song, if you’d like, but I’ve been on a hardcore camera on kick this morning, so I I’m feeling buoyant, I’m feeling verbose. I’m feeling like I just need to rhyme for the rest of the rest of the recording. I
Herbert Lui 1:44
love it. Man. That’s the killer cam effect. Okay, hold on. You said this morning, turn
Hamza Khan 1:49
the purple on one second. Here we go. Let’s go. Pink ink. Purple. There we go. Shout out to purple horsepower. Pink horsepower, whatever is what product he’s pushing, pushing these days. I think he’s called Pink horsepower,
Herbert Lui 2:05
right? I have no idea. Man, I can’t keep up. I barely the show. The show is entertaining, but I’m I’m struggling to keep up with all the content everywhere. Okay? I was gonna ask, it’s Saturday morning. You mentioned the morning just now, most people, probably not. Most many people, are waking up at this hour. It’s probably like 11am I get an email from you, and I have gotten emails from you in the past that’s like seven, 7:40am What time do you wake up on Saturday morning? Hamza,
Hamza Khan 2:36
dude, this is a good question. I don’t know why. I feel a little bit ashamed to admit that I wake up at 5am every day, no matter what, even on the weekends. Wow. Yeah, man, the cons, the key to being consistent with these 5am mornings is to wake up at 5am no matter what, no matter how late the night ended before, and just trust that your body will establish the baseline that will dictate when you need to fall asleep. So I got home last night around 12. We were celebrating my sister in law’s birthday. What a night in New York, I gotta say like this, the nights in New York where you just sort of find your night or find your day, are ridiculous, minus the baristas who can’t spell your name. I had somebody pronounce my name or spell my name the other day. L A, I How does Hamza become l a i grow
Herbert Lui 3:22
Wait, did you that was your drink, though, right? You didn’t. You didn’t take Li’s drink somewhere.
Hamza Khan 3:28
Okay, so I gotta add more context here, right? So I have a Starbucks name, I have a coffee barista name, and that barista name is Ali, which is my middle name. And I sometimes even have to do like, the whole gesture, right? Depending on how chaotic the Starbucks is, how chaotic the coffee shop is, but I am convinced that the average employee is having a bad day at work. I’m convinced that they are just so checked out, disengaged, overwhelmed, that they’re going through with this director from corporate to customize the experience for for the patron. But it’s completely backfiring. I’m just like, don’t do it, man. Just like, take the drink and let’s just make it transactional. It doesn’t have to be a transformational experience, bro. And so I give them Ali and I tried Hamza, and they were like, What has hazam? Hazma? I’m like, No, man, it’s not summoning a superhero. It’s not a respiratory illness, bro. Let’s just go with Ali. And they were going back and forth to me, this whole ordeal took like, 45 to 67 five to 60 seconds, and oh, my goodness, I got back lie. And I’m like, this is where we’re at, bro.
Herbert Lui 4:27
I mean, technically, a li Lai, there’s, I don’t know there’s more, yeah, can make the cognitive jump there, but Hamza, Hamza a lie. I’m like, wow,
Hamza Khan 4:40
yeah, that was, that was a leap. And so, like, there was a gradient of experience that went into producing live. But I’m like, You got you, you rearranged all three letters in completely different sequences. Like, this is, anyways, I too, got a bone to pick with New York baristas. Herbert. Let me know. Let me know when we’re riding on him, because I’m in my killer cam bag today. I. Yeah,
Herbert Lui 5:01
for sure. Man, for show, for show. Dude, the 5am wake ups. Man, super impressive. Super impressive. I’m I’m not there. I don’t think I’ll ever be there. I’m gonna be honest with you, because you you slept at like midnight, maybe you got back. Yeah, you said, right. I was
Hamza Khan 5:17
in bed at one, but my mind was racing, like I was lying in bed thinking about this morning’s recording. Because we have because we have such a fun pun, very much intended, a fun topic today, a playful topic today. And I was just like, I need to bring in some stories, especially because I’ve been getting very critical about our last two episodes. I listened to them and I ran them through a new test, by the way. So we’ve done the walking through New York test. Herbert, I did the rock me to sleep on a flight from LA to New York test recently, okay, and it works so well, like, I put it on and that, like the nice new material intro beat, that just slides, that feels like, you know, an elder millennial throwback to 2010 Drake beat. I’m just like, oh man, it lulled me right into the conversation and then hearing us laugh and joke and tell stories and riff on all things, creativity, productivity, peak performance, it just felt really great. And then I woke up about 45 minutes into it, and I was able to just pick back up because there was a consistency in theme and voice and style that I really enjoyed. So I’ve been thinking really deeply about what I want to do differently as we build out new material. And one of the things that I loved about the first two episodes is when we were just having fun, when it was just us laughing, telling stories, being silly, and I’m like, for sure, just gotta do more of that shit, man, you might see me next week wearing a full pink, purple fur outfit. That might just happen at some point in the evolution of this show. That’s That’s right now, there’s like, probably three guests that if we were to get these three guests, they would be like, the infinity stones for us. And I know that we can, like, wrap up the show once we get those three. I can name two of them. I cannot, I can’t they
Herbert Lui 7:10
must not be named. They must not be named.
Hamza Khan 7:16
This, all of this spawn from you asking 5am I was I was up. My mind was racing. I’m like, I have so much I want to say on this topic, especially after I read your multiple posts on the different array of characters that compose the creative being, the creative way of thinking. And I actually had to go and look at some therapy notes, because this actually was a big theme of a therapy journey that I was on maybe two years ago where I was experiencing severe disassociation, and so I had my therapist helped me come up with that sort of inside out panel of characters that compose and animate Hamza. And anyways, I’m getting ahead of myself over here. There’s so much I want to say clearly, but let me turn this back over to you, bro, what’s been happening with you? Let’s just do a quick sort of life, not even quick. Why slap some constraints on it, dude, luxury, tell the story. What’s been happening with Herbert,
Herbert Lui 8:09
yes, yeah, what’s been happening, man, I found out that last week was a long weekend. I found out on Friday, it’s like the best feeling, man, I was like booking a meeting with with a CEO I’m working with, and he was like, oh, yeah, this sounds good, but Monday’s a holiday. I was like, Monday’s a holiday, holiday. And amazing. So I went to the Met. I’ve been meaning to go for a few weeks now, and finally, you know, there was the opening for it, and it was just so nice being there. You know, it was super busy, as it always is. It was practically a weekend, but it was just so refreshing to visit, to enjoy the crowd, the crowded spaces, to enjoy the classical art, to enjoy all of it, man and I, you know, there’s been this one painting that I’ve been trying to see for a long time, and it was not there. I check it every time, because I visited once, and it was there, and then, like, you know, long story short, it’s not anymore. And I’m like, oh, man, but I ended up finding it on Google. And so that’s what visiting the Met, like unblocks for me, a lot of times these things that kind of like I forgot about myself, or things that I forgot that I really enjoyed. And I got to read a book as well. While I was there, I went to the roof, brought a really small book with me called Managing managing yourself, or Managing Oneself, or something like that. I really should remember, it’s a nice rooftop
Hamza Khan 9:41
too, with the sort of the the play on the Egyptian columns there, with graffiti on them, and, yeah, do they have that installation still going on at the
Herbert Lui 9:50
Met they did a couple of times ago? I think they changed it. Okay? I’m gonna be honest with you. I was the view is what takes, is what takes the attention, right? It’s like, oh my gosh. A View set, you know, it’s smack dab in Central Park, and then, like, you just see the rest of Manhattan, you’re like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And so that was my met trip. What else happened? I ventured out to Queens for, like, a friends a friend’s art show. It’s been and I’m trying. I actually have been listening to a bunch of Virgil Abloh lectures from like, the mid 2010s you know, it is, I guess it is, I think, I think, like I subconsciously, or maybe consciously now, like, I turn to them in times of difficulty and times of just like, Man, I don’t know. I don’t know if this is working. I don’t know if this is going to work. I’m I was making a decision earlier this week, which was to I was like, I have a deadline for my new book. Am I going to stick with it or not? And I was like, If I don’t, if I give myself some extra time, I can do all this stuff. And I was like, You know what? I think I’m just going to stick with it, because there’s a lot of other projects down the line that I want to work on and that I just can’t pull through until I push this one out. And so I’m like, Well, I think, I think this is it. I think I got to decide to ship it and then and like, get it out there, and it’s going to be what it’s going to be. And Virgil is like the perfect voice to listen to, right? Like, you know, he has this great saying, perfectionism does not advance creativity some I’m paraphrasing it a little bit, but there is no failure, right? Like, as long as you put the work together, it’s in varying stages of completion. It’s out there, and that’s that. And I really so that was the RISD lecture from 2017 that I listened to. I really enjoyed it, and it’s all sorts of chaos. I just blogged about it as well. He’s like, he didn’t, he showed up to RISD. He’s like, I’m not. I don’t have anything planned. I think I’m gonna try to make something while I’m here and then talk about it. And he has like, a full day worth of, like, managing off white, right? So it’s like he’s trying to do all this stuff in the middle of all that. And I was like, Man, this guy is so next level, so great to listen to. Last thing I’ll add is I picked up, so I’m traveling to Asia in December, and I picked up my visa to get into China, and it was like, Okay, it’s actually not that far from hosting. It’s like, near Times Square, like the consulate. So, you know that bike ride? I took an E bike up the West
Hamza Khan 12:35
e bikes. Man, it’s
Herbert Lui 12:37
amazing. Man, it dude, the experience is just, I don’t do city bikes very often, but that path to me feels very like, you know, bike friendly, of course, kind of like the waterfront in Toronto, right? And it’s like, oh, I just really, actually, exactly, and I really enjoyed it. And so, yeah, man loving. Had a good week, had a solid week, and I came in really prepared to talk about my week. Clearly, I was like, Whoa, yeah,
Hamza Khan 13:06
man, it’s such a solid week, and it’s such it’s such an on brand Herbert week. It’s the perfect confluence of all things, art, creativity, anxiety, like that’s certainly a big theme of new material and our lives, but a healthy sprinkling of hip hop in the culture throughout everything, especially layering in those vintage Virg lectures. Man, it’s, I’m so happy that you got to experience that, dude, thank
Herbert Lui 13:31
you. Man, it makes me very happy. That’s
Hamza Khan 13:33
quite the image. Man, it’s like, you know, it’s like a short film. Man,
Herbert Lui 13:36
it was all over, dude, it was all over the place. I loved it. How about you? Man, how was, how was the week you went from New York to LA?
Hamza Khan 13:45
Yeah, that’s it. Was wild man. So like, I had the opposite week to you. You had such a a thematic week. There was a consistency throughout it. There was art. There was going to Queens checking out your friend’s Gallery, which I mean, I really want to do, since I’ve been here, I’m so nostalgic for the show called How to make it in America.
Herbert Lui 14:03
And, oh yeah,
Hamza Khan 14:04
do you know the show, dude, of
Herbert Lui 14:06
course, of course. Did
Hamza Khan 14:07
you watch it? It’s, yeah,
Herbert Lui 14:08
I think I’ve watched. I mean, there was only one season, right? Like, you grow Oh damn. I think I only watched season one. That’s a very new old head show, by the way. That’s
Hamza Khan 14:18
a new old head show. And I have a deep fantasy that, like in creating new material, at some point, there’s gonna be a merch line that rolls out, and that’ll be my playful attempt at crisp, you know, so just putting that out there for the materialists. So you had a very consistent, regenerative week. I had the opposite. Mine was discordant and it was draining at times. And so I would say the theme of the week was context switching. And for those of you unfamiliar with context switching, it sounds literally what it’s like. You’re just changing context constantly. And you know, for an introvert like myself that just needs consistency of relationship and just needs some pattern. In my day, in my week. I didn’t get any of that. So I went from New York to Toronto. I stayed with my parents over there. And that’s a whole other thing we can unpack. You know? I can take my parents in doses. I love my mom and my dad. Mom, Dad, if you’re listening to this, I love you so much. But I think we need space. You know? I think that we can be with each other, by the
Herbert Lui 15:19
way, like most people, you want to,
Hamza Khan 15:21
eight hours, 24 hours, we’re good. At 48 hours, it’s like, hey, we don’t, we don’t have to talk all the time. And at 72 hours, it’s like, the door is closed. Don’t come in. Like, I just need to reconstitute. They
Herbert Lui 15:34
clearly love having you around, though, which is why I think the key to take away is 100%
Hamza Khan 15:39
man. And as I’m saying that like I think about, I think about, I I realize I’m doing it right now. I have a tendency when I’m with you, and when I’m in these playful Saturday morning moods, to just go off on tangents. Let me just bring it
Herbert Lui 15:53
back and answer the question. The biggest tangent, what do you mean? Man, it’s good.
Hamza Khan 16:00
Your shit was so consistent, I have to consistently explain the inconsistency of my week. And so I went from my parents, and then I just barely, Bailey joined me at some point in this, in this trip, and we both couldn’t work in the same place, so we decided to go to a we work, which is a whole other story, because I’m like, Yo, what the new been up to? Yeah, the one right by on, I think it was one university. It’s like, right on top of the MOS moss coffee, right across the street from the Fairmont Royal York. So that was dope, being in the we work. But I was just like, man, what is Adam Newman up to? And I went down a rabbit hole. Holy smokes, man. This guy’s up to no good all over again. Just putting it out there. Adam, if you’re listening to this, or if anybody’s bending, has the ability to bend Adams ear. Adam, use your gifts for good dude. Don’t do what you’re doing right now. I’m just saying that you have, you have the brains and you have the access to be able to create a better world, and you were doing the opposite. In my opinion, we can debate that
Herbert Lui 16:53
later. But what was really cool, I’m in total agreement. Totally agree. You know what
Hamza Khan 16:57
he’s up to, right? Like, he’s, he’s now, he’s now part of this organization. I don’t know what it’s called, but they’re essentially like, like a Blackrock that’s just buying up all of this commercial realist, sorry, all this residential real estate and just renting things out is just creating this massive property rental company. And I feel very strongly, almost, I have, like, borderline Marxist views when it comes to personal property, which we could talk about another time. But anyways, all that, all that’s to say, like, I want Adam Newman to succeed. But like, after watching the we work documentaries, after reading about the we work debacle, after writing about it in leadership reinvented, I’m just like, Dude, you have such an opportunity for a redemptive arc here. What are you doing? Dude? So I went there, but while I was in the we work, there was like such energy, because Bailey and I are riffing on this new organization, or set of organizations, that we’re building. So as you’re writing your book, we’re in the process right now of expanding out skills camp. As we’re approaching the 10th year anniversary, we’re putting all of our ideas into practice. But how do we disrupt ourselves? How do we create the type of organization that would put skills camp out of business? And we’re building that right now, and it’s really exciting. Lot of cool ideas that are bubbling up, including, and this is going to sound really weird for me to say out loud to another person, but I’m building a tech company. Okay, let’s
Herbert Lui 18:12
go.
Hamza Khan 18:13
I know I it’s so weird to say, but like, we just signed an MOA, or I don’t. I don’t know how much I can say, because we’re technically in stealth mode right now, but there’s, there is a CTO and technical co founder that I be working with, which is just a wild position that I’ve never actually worked with this closely. I’ve been part of tech organizations, been part of startups that have had tech divisions, but like now, I guess coming in as the CEO, founder. I’m going to have this person working with me, and I’m actually really looking forward to that, and I’m retraining my leadership muscles to be able to put all of these ideas that I’ve been speaking about and selling into practice. So that happened then I went to my brother’s wedding, and because it was an Indian wedding, there were like 10,000 events, and all of them were great. But imagine going from all of this sort of like building being with parents, experiencing the ups and downs of that relationship, going into the wedding, from the wedding, then releasing the first episode of new material. That was surreal to see that out in the world. And I’m like, Oh, this is really happening. Such a great feeling that I went from there to a birthday party that was a lot of fun. But at one point in the night, it started to get a little, a little, Eyes Wide Shut, ish, you know, there was two, two people who came out in full spandex, zebra outfits, and you know, they started twerking. And I’m like, oh, okay, we reached this. Year was that it was in Toronto. Dude, it was in Toronto.
Herbert Lui 19:43
Which, which venue Are you allowed to say which venue This is,
Hamza Khan 19:46
I can’t, I can’t put the people on blast. But it was a private birthday party. It was a lot of fun. But, like, at one point in the night, I was like, oh, man, like I, I totally understand, like, how this can go from just, you know, Dan. Saying vibing having a great time to, you know, wherever to to, you know, to lovely individuals and very fit individuals and animated individuals in zebra spandex and full masks and everything go so, you know, use your imagination. This is, this is where the parties can go. Every time I went to the bathroom, I was like, is there, baby? Oh, my goodness, we’re not gonna make it past one season at this straight man. I’m like, maybe we shouldn’t publish the transcripts of the show. I’m just saying. Maybe we should just take Bailey’s advice and just be like, if you guys just want to catch up, catch up. Don’t record a podcast.
Okay? Okay, let me wrap this up real quick. Shout out to the materialist, Vin. You guys are awesome, all three of you know, Bernice, Bailey and Evan, that’s the listenership right now. It’s like me, you our respective partners and our editor, the only people who listen to this right now. And I’m just, I personally know many, many who are listening to this. So shout out to all of you. So what’s been happening for me is, after that party, again, context switch, then I went up north to Orillia, to an RV park, where I celebrated Thanksgiving with Bailey’s family, and it’s just like the outfits changed the vernacular, change the way I was speaking and moving changed. I mean, it was a lot. And then I went from there back to another wedding event. This was up in Caledon, and then I completed some schoolwork. So like, in addition to everything that’s going on right now, I’m still, right now in a master’s program. And then, dude, the weekend finally subsided, and I had to go into hardcore keynote mode. And like last week, there were two major keynotes. One of them was for a large bank in Canada, and that was quite the experience. And then I immediately went from there to a large Real Estate Association in LA in the span of 24 hours. So in 24 hours, two different keynotes, two very different topics to very different audiences. And it was, it was playoff level. Shit, man. I’m like, I there is a version of Hamza that was not ready for this task maybe four years ago. And I’ve been gradually optimizing myself, including the 5am mornings, to be able to have that baseline from which I can dial up the intensity and just as easily dial it back down. So that wrapped up. I’m back here now episode two, I believe, will have dropped by the time that we published this one. And yesterday, my sister in law, Kelsey, came into town from Calgary, and we’ve just been having the best time here in New York. And dude, I’ll end by saying this one of the coolest things about being in New York and now living here is when you get to experience it through a quote, unquote, Outsider’s eyes, like when you have family and friends come to visit, and you get to see how excited they get about New York and the things that they want to do, and you get to just vicariously experience it with them. It’s just the best man. It reminds you of why you moved here in the first place, you know, especially after you pay rent, and you’re like, Man, I hate this place. I don’t want to leave. What am I doing here? You’re questioning you’re questioning your self worth constantly, you’re like, Ah, man, this is not working out. And then all it takes is just one person pulling out their phone and taking a photo of something that you’ve passed by now 100 times. And to them, it’s just so special. And like that, to me, is like, it’s so deeply validating of why we’re here, because we’re inviting the subconscious energy and creativity. We’re inviting the energy and the creativity from the city to seep into our subconscious and and give us that extra, extra spark, that extra, you know, you know, health bar, if you will, to keep going
Herbert Lui 24:15
100% man, I was just thinking the same thing. I was catching up with a friend who had visited last year I was out of town. We just missed each other. And I was like, What do you think of the subways here? I was like, griping about a little bit. He’s like, Oh, I loved it. Like it was everywhere, even on the subway, like, everywhere you went. It was like, you’re in a movie. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that’s so true. Like it still is how I feel. And maybe it’s something that, like only people who move here will understand. But also even coming in, coming into Manhattan, is just always such a nice feeling, like it’s like the feeling of, I mean, when you’re visiting from outside New York into New York. It’s already like, you know, that’s on 10, right? That’s like, the most intense version of the feeling crossing one of the bridges, so on and so forth. But even coming into the city from Queens, a Queens is like, super cool. It’s like, yeah, the air is so fresh. I can’t believe it is good. It smells over there. And it’s like, it smells horrible, horrible, so polluted. It’s like more door up in here.
Hamza Khan 25:27
You even look across to Brooklyn and you see basically Saurons tower over there too, right? That’s right, oh
Herbert Lui 25:33
my gosh. That’s so true. And so it’s like, yeah, coming in though, from Queens into Manhattan is also really nice. It’s like a little break from from, you know, the heart of everything. But then you get back to it, and you’re like, Ah, it’s nice. It’s nice being back in the city, you know. So totally, I totally get it. Totally get it.
Hamza Khan 25:53
I just texted you a picture. So I flew from LA I went to Washington. There was a lay over there. Then I came from Washington to New York. And usually when I’m traveling between Washington and New York, I usually take a different airlines, or sometimes I even take the train. But this path in particular cut around New York in a way that I don’t think I’ve ever flown before, and I landed into every single airport, but this view was spectacular on the day that it was and man, I was like, I was like a dog wanting to stick its head out of the window, like my head, my face was practically stuck to the window the entire flight as we descended into New York. That picture was just stunning.
Herbert Lui 26:28
Man, beautiful. It’s JFK. Is that right?
Hamza Khan 26:31
This was LGA, actually, LGA with a weird entrance into, like, another part, like another, another runway that I don’t think I’ve ever taken off from or landed in, or maybe, maybe I didn’t. I just wasn’t present. But I was feeling a little bit tired after delivering this back to back keynote and going through that week of context switching, but that first sight of the skyline was like a quick charge, like somebody stuck a USBC in my stomach. I was like, Oh, here we go. I’m back. Lightning charge. I’m here. I’m ready to rock. And that energy, that energy, carried forth until last night, where we went to this restaurant. Actually, we were in, I believe Chelsea, there’s a restaurant called Medusa, M, E, D, U, Z, a or Z, a for our US listeners, right? Medusa, second time there. It’s a really neat concept. It’s like a Mediterranean, like Israeli, Greek fusion kind of situation, but I believe that it’s a new category of restaurant that I’ve only experienced a couple of times, where it’s like a club and a restaurant simultaneously. The music is on way too loud. There’s entertainers moving around. Food is fantastic, but it is just so chaotic there. But other people found it very calming and relaxing, like the birthday girl. She was like, in awe the entire night. She’s like, Oh my God, you know me. You know my soul. And I’m like, Yeah, it’s really cool, man. Like, I’m glad you’re having fun here. But I’m an aging millennial. I got tinnitus in my left ear. I have to yell. Not only do I have to yell, it’s like, the music, the acoustics are like, messing with my equilibrium here. And so at one point I was just like, Bailey, I actually need to go like, I think I’m losing my I’m losing my balance here, and I don’t think it’s the weed. So we had to dip early, and then I came, and then I conked out at like, midnight, and then I woke up at one in the morning. I’m like, Hey, where’s everybody? Like, why aren’t we partying anymore? And everyone was knocked out. And so that’s when I had all the energy, and I started brainstorming about today’s topic. And now here we are. Wow.
Herbert Lui 28:20
I mean, you, you say it’s discombobulated, but I feel like that’s also very Virgil, like, life, you know, it’s like, very like, oh, like, I’m, I’m everywhere, I’m, I’m nowhere, I’m like, my phone is my office kind of situation, you know, like, that’s a and you’re on the planes, you know, you’re doing all this stuff, man. So very let
Hamza Khan 28:42
me just go there full circle to something that you said earlier. So you essentially gave Virgil’s riff on the idea of that perfect is the enemy of good. I like the way that Virgil said it a lot better. Well, how did he say it exactly
Herbert Lui 28:52
again? So there’s, there is no failure. Is like, one motto, right? Like he was like, in the middle of his day, he’s like, oh, there’s no way I’m gonna get this thing done. And then he like, he’s like, wait, I never say that to myself. There’s, there’s like, it’s just, it’s just doing the thing, and then wherever it is by the time limit, that’s what it’s gonna be. There’s, you know, there’s no failure. And the other version of that is, let me check my blog real quick actually, because I actually wrote this down. And
Hamza Khan 29:27
while you’re saying that like, I’ll riff on, I’ll riff on something real quick, like it, especially when you move to New York, something becomes so clear to you, as far as time is concerned, because the New York minute is absolutely real, and I believe it’s rooted in phrases law. Phrases law, for those of you who are unfamiliar, it’s the law that states that time has a subjective dimension that varies according to the personal interest you have in the thing that you’re doing. So if you love what you’re doing, if you’re engaged, a unit of time will move by very quickly compared to if you hate what you’re doing, and that same amount of time will feel like an eternity. But here in New York, Time moves by very quickly because people are so dialed in, whether they want to be or not. I. And so I say that to say that with our lives being as chaotic as they are right now, our challenge as creatives, as people who enjoy work, and I identify as a amateur business athlete trying to go pro, my challenge is that I don’t have time. I have to make time. I have to be very intentional about how I pull from this chaotic tapestry of events, interactions, thoughts and identify a priority, something that needs to get done. And so Herbert, you were saying earlier that like you want to take your own sweet time with this book, but if you take your own sweet time with the book, it’s probably never going to get done, considering the multitude the plethora of things that are competing for your time, energy and attention. So you almost just have to commit to an arbitrary deadline, simulate some constraints, and then let Parkinson’s Law take the wheel. And Parkinson’s Law, I would say, is probably my favorite productivity principle, or productivity law, if you will, dynamic, whatever you want to call it, it states that work expands so as to fill the time allocated for its completion. So Herbert, if you don’t give yourself a deadline, you’re gonna work on this book until it meets, until it meets. I was gonna say meets and matches, meets until it reaches your definition of perfect. But knowing the artist that you are, it’s probably never gonna reach that point. But last week, in last week’s episode, we talked about your boy who banged out a book in 30 days, and I’m still, I’m still, like, in disbelief at that speed. I need to read this book because I’m like, You need to grab me a copy. How good could it actually be if you, if you wrote this in 30 days? Like, I’ve taken 30 days to write blog posts, bro. Like, how’d you, how’d you bang out a whole book? But it’s you’re saying that it meets your your standard of thoughtfulness and quality. I believe that, because I’m also a believer in the Picasso napkin idea, right? He didn’t actually take 30 days to write this. He took 30 years to write it. That’s exactly because, like my first book, the burnout gamble, took three years to write. Leadership reinvented four months. So I totally get it. And all of this is to say, like, kudos to you for recognizing the thing that you need to do here, because this, this is where I honestly think majority of creatives and people get stuck. They have these bright ideas, but they don’t actually know how to translate them into action. And you just have to, you just have to pick the constraint, honestly, 100% sorry, did you find the quote?
Herbert Lui 32:20
I got the quote. I couldn’t agree more. I think that the so here’s a quote, right? Just to thread the needle here, perfection doesn’t advance anything as a creative is what he says. And I mean, and then there’s this, there’s this much longer bit that I excerpted, which is, it goes like this, and I’m reading it. And so this is what he said. The only failure is not to try designers, creators or artists. We have a natural convention to be tormented a little bit of an inner struggle. Is the work living up to its fullest potential, or is it as great as the work that you idolize from your design idols? But at the end of the day, it’s your body of work. And so the amount of work and the refinement of that work will define who you are as a creative just this challenge of not being fearful, of perfectionism, of being able to do it, it resulted, well, for him, it resulted in just one idea that he wanted. I mean, I’ll quote him. I didn’t quote him at the end, but that was, that was me calling the rest of it. And so for him, like, he, he, he went to RISD he like, loves a logo there. He bought a few sweatshirts off the campus store. And then he like, went to the buildings, and was like, okay, cool. I gotta, like, find a screen printer. Couldn’t find a screen printer. He like, had to ask students to help him. And all this stuff, right? He found, like, a garment bag lying around. So he like, put it on as a transparency layer for, excuse me, for one of the one of the sweatshirts. So that was one idea. And then the second idea, he like, cut the sweatshirt down the middle. And he was like, you know, couldn’t find a zipper for it yet, but like, you know. And so towards his speech, he still didn’t have any of like, he still didn’t have a finished product by the conventional definition of the word, right? But he has, he had these two ideas, one of them he was really excited by, which was the transparency layer. And to me, like, I Googled, oh, like, did, did, like, Did offway make anything with a transparency layer after. And it turns out, a year after his speech, they released a collaboration with ramoa That was like a transparency layer over the classic remote suitcase. Yeah. And I was like, Whoa, that. I mean, I don’t know where in the creative process he was along that already, because I imagine, you know, a year is not a lot of lead time for suitcases, but at the same time, remote already had, like, its production process going. So I was like, Wow. I wonder even if it was just an elaboration on the idea, or a revisiting of it, though I thought that was really cool. And it was like, oh, like a student watching that got a chance. Even me like, I mean, I am in many. Ways. I am a student of Virgil’s. We I had, you know, I never had a chance to work with him. Had like, two close brushes. One time was like, here in New York, I was going to the Ludlow house. I was like, oh, I’ll just do some work real, real quick. And he was gonna do like, a Warby Parker thing nearby. That was, Oh, I’ll go after and I’m like, walking towards the place to love the house and, and I’m like, oh, like, there’s this big group of people. They’re like, really partying. And I was like, wait, I think that’s Virgil. And like, they go in, I go in too. And like, he, like, holds the door, like, right behind. He’s like, hey, you know, oh my god, this is so cool. I’m like, No way. Look at the sign in book and it says Virgil, just in, like, all caps. I was like, Yo, so cool, so cool. And then another time, he was speaking in Toronto at like, free space, I think some it was like a Canon event and like, that was also so cool, you know, we, like, got a brief Convo out of it after, but I was like, Man, this guy is just so cool. Virgil is just so cool. Was and is, you know, and so, anyways, yeah to, yeah. Like, it’s just so interesting. Like, Virgil is the perfect encapsulation of this playful aspect. And let’s like, definitely, you know, we’ve been setting up for a while now. Let’s get into it. Man, I think let’s get into it. You know, we were, we were talking about the creative process. We’ve been talking about it, and this aspect of perfectionism, I think you deal with, I deal with, if you’re listening to this, you probably deal with it too. It’s what makes you kind of want to do good work in the first place. So it’s kind of hard to do that without that sense, right? But at the same time, it often gets in the way of doing good work. And so I wanted to really quickly introduce a way of thinking about this, right? So I’ll tell this story. It’s in creative doing. It’s also at my blog, but it’s basically the main character is professor, Betty flowers. She is, she’s a professor, and, you know, she’s like, lecturing her class, and she’s talking about, okay, what’s the hardest part of writing for everyone. And one person is like, oh, starting the writing is, like, the most difficult part. I can’t, I can’t, like, even get started. Like, it just, I just get blocked. And another one’s like, actually finishing it is way harder, though. Like, when you, when you when you’ve started, and you’ve got maybe, like, three paragraphs, but then you’re like, Wait, this isn’t really any good, and I gotta, like, tinker with it and edit and make it better and and so she, like, pauses the Convo there, and she’s like, okay, she writes down four words on the blackboard, and it’s, it goes like this. It goes like idiot, Carpenter, architect and judge. And the whole point like and each of these, each writer has one of these, has all four of these aspects in their lives. And the whole point is, you can’t get the energies and aspects mixed up. So you don’t want the architect doing work when the the idiot’s supposed to be doing work, and each each of these roles or these aspects play a specific role, or like a specific function in the writing process, and, I think, in the creative process in general as well. So the idiot is just their only job is to make something new, and they can’t really do anything else, but that’s something that the other three people can’t do at all. Right?
There’s another analogy of this where, I think it was Susan Sontag. She splits that up into like, the the nut and the moron. And the nut is like, the person that like that like, comes up with the material, but the moron is the one that like lets it out, right? It’s like, oh God. Like, why did I say that is kind of the morons job. But in Betty flowers case and Professor flowers case, it was, it was just one, one aspect, it’s the idiot. Then there’s the architect. Okay, so once the idiots done their work, right? You got that really bad first draft in there, the architect comes in and starts making sense out of it, from a structural and even developmental perspective. They’re like, okay, cool. Like, what is this thing? What’s the raw material I got here? What? What am I trying to build? You know, okay, let’s, let’s really try to put the structure together and to make something out of all of this, right? I’m going to draft up the blueprint. I’m going to, you know, actually supervise the building of this thing. And that’s where I am right now. I feel like and my architect is going to be on full like that. That person has a difficult job because there’s a really tight time constraint. So the architect needs to come in and make sense of what. The idiots done. Then there’s the carpenter who works. So the architects got the plans together. Now the carpenter comes in and polishes and builds everything on a word by word, sentence by sentence level, where it’s like, okay, cool. Like, this is, this is how this phrase should sound. This is how this paragraph should flow to the next one and things like that. Yeah. And then finally, you got the judge. The judge comes in. They’re like, I’m gonna fix this. This doesn’t look right. That’s not good. This makes no sense. Exit out, you know? And they really are that super tasteful, super critical. They’re probably the inner voice of your favorite author, the voice of your English teacher, the voice of people you admire, the voice of a critic, right? Very critical, but it makes sure that everything is really, really well done as much as possible before it goes out there. And the key, once again, I want to emphasize this, the key is to not let these energies get mixed up together. You want to know where you are in the process and which aspect to call upon to do their job. So I’m very clearly now. I’m like, okay, cool. You know the idiot, and I use this word very endearingly, as I’m sure Professor flowers intends as well. The idiot is like, Okay, I’m tapping out soon. Like, I’m signing out of work. The architects got to come in and be like, okay, like, how does this thing actually work? What are we even trying to do here? Right? Yeah, man. And, and similarly, you don’t want the judge looking over the idiot’s shoulder and going like, hey. Like, what, what are you doing? This is horrible. Like, blah, blah, blah, because then the idiots just can be okay, like, this is horrible. I’m just gonna stop. And really, I think the theme of, of what I want to talk about today was the idiot, right? It’s like this playful aspect. We can, first of all, maybe rebrand the idiot into something less sure, less of a harsh name jester, the fool, the Jester. Some people call it the artist. Some people call it, you know, a child, maybe, right? Yeah, the inner child. Very much. So I stuck with idiot, because that’s what Professor flowers used for the story. But really, I think that one of the key aspects, whether, no matter where you are in your journey, is basically nurturing, nurturing, this playful aspect, this idiot aspect of your work. And also like making sure, you know, I think that on the day to day, we we feed the judge, we feed the carpenter and the architect, and we train them a lot, and the world kind of trains them as well, right? We, we learn from everyone else what that sounds like. However, I think with with the idiot, they’re kind of neglected a little bit right? Like we don’t always do fun stuff, we don’t always like play, we don’t always make time to do that, and our jobs don’t really need us to either, so we just kind of neglect them. And I think that one really critical key to get through perfectionism, to get through all of the painful like tormented parts of the creative process, is to really nurture the idiot a little bit more, and also to to appreciate them and to tap into their spontaneity and to really play. I think that’s the key. I’ll pause there, because that’s, that’s where the story, the story of all of this, begins. And I want to hear what you think.
Hamza Khan 43:27
Oh, my God. Now, now, new materialist, you fully understand why Herbert and I had to create a show. Because, dude, as you were saying that, I was taking notes, and I spawned, I kid you not, no less than 10 different paths to explore over here, 15 different episodes. There’s so much we can talk about, just for example, in you know, and I’ll park this very quickly, because I want to come back and stay stay on topic here. But just one of the ideas is in your description of each of the different archetypes that exist, how well they map onto sort of the ID, the super ego and the ego. So there’s that, right? So true. You can also look at them as sort of individual components of a project. You essentially described a creative director, a CEO, a COO like and I’m thinking about this as I’m building my new business. I’m like, what role do I need to play over here? Because if I’m going to be the CEO of this company, my inclination is to want to be the fool. But if I’m the fool as a CEO, I’m going to be Adam Newman, basically. So how’s that for a deep call back in my my role is to be a judge. And then it got me thinking about, hmm, why? Why am I so familiar with these archetypes? Because I remember I was struggling two years ago, when I sought out a coach and a therapist with who was showing up for my keynotes, I was not in control. I didn’t I didn’t actually integrate this team. And so there’s like, a whole other topic about, like, what does it look like to actually have that conversation that Congress with all of these different voices in your head, and get them to sit together and decide and. And negotiate who is going to take over in what situation. Because what was happening for me as a speaker is I would have the critic that was one of the characters in my being take over, and the critic was running the show. The critic was running the show during crucial moments where I needed to be on stage and actually be loose and be fun and be spontaneous. But I was having somebody sort of tap down, lock down, all of my ideas, and it started to present itself physically and then eventually emotionally and by the end, mentally. So there’s a lot that I want to offer over here, but you know, I will say this, what’s been super cool for me over the last year is really playing with the idea that, I think it was Pablo Picasso introduced, and he said something to the effect of, I hope I get this right. He said, All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once they grow up. Something like that. I
Herbert Lui 45:56
hope I got that right. Yes, yes. Okay,
Hamza Khan 45:59
and last night, I admitted something at the dinner table, and I really need to take some time and think about this. But, you know, I was, I was surrounded by, you know, people that I love, you know, my wife, Bailey, or two sisters. And the thing that I admitted yesterday was like, I actually like I in my soul. I want to get back to just creating. I love the career that I have right now. I love the work that I get to do. It’s everything I want to be and more. But I think my soul will be restless if I don’t actually put pen to paper and commit to doing creative projects. And let me be more specific, I kind of want to make music videos. I kind of want to get back into Yeah, dude. Yeah, wow, straight up. I know, I know it’s a massive irritation in my life that I stopped playing, I stopped having fun, I stopped doing the thing that I was doing before I had to choose in grade 11 or 12 what I was supposed to my life.
Herbert Lui 47:00
That’s so cool. It’s you. When was the last music video made? What was what to like? Paint the picture here,
Hamza Khan 47:07
bro, I was 17 man like it was, it was a long time ago. So I’m an aging millennial. I came up in the age of pirating music and pirating videos. And there was a thing that if you were an anime fan and a fan of hip hop, specifically the the mashup of Lincoln Park. One of the things that you did is you made Dragon Ball Z music videos, right? And this was, bro, this is how it started. Man,
Herbert Lui 47:31
what kind of what other anime Are you watching right now? What’s the other stuff? Hold on. And this
Hamza Khan 47:35
is, this is my big regret that I’m not watching anime right now. Like I actually stopped watching anime. I know, dude, I know I was deep into it for a while, and I don’t want to be a consumer anymore. I don’t want to I want to be a prosumer. I want to be a producer and a consumer. Something about the idea that all the guys that I grew up with who were part of this thing called NBP, which is no budget productions, and we just took that sort of Scarborough hustle, we took that lack of resources and we channeled it into creating in different formats, the reality that we wanted. We grew up on G unit on Lincoln Park. We grew up on Snoop, all of that. And so we would take these influences and then take these visuals from Dragon Ball Z and early movies like The Matrix and whatnot, and just create these fun worlds for ourselves. We had these little film festivals in each other’s basements, and that eventually online, man. And like, we were, we were doing some pretty innovative things at the time. You know, our work was being shown at film festivals. We were being asked to produce music videos for up and coming artists. And then eventually, like, we had to grow up, and we had to start paying bills, and we had to go to school, and we had to choose which major we wanted to go into. And like, everybody was doing it reluctantly. And I was one of the holdouts. I was one of the people being like, No man, like, let’s, let’s keep on trying to do this thing. And, you know, I love them all. But like, you know, they become accountants, they become lawyers, you know, they become, you know, IT specialists. They’ve gone into real estate, so on and so forth. Everybody’s doing well, they’ve got families, but there’s two of us, and we just had this moment at azims wedding, my brother’s wedding, where we sat down and we’re like, Yo, you and I are. His name is Osama, and we’re like, you and I are the ones who went into that world, and then we sort of doubled back, like he he was going deep into accountancy, and then, like he just pulled the shoot. He’s like, No, forget it. I’m gonna go learn how to do visual effects. Moved to Vancouver and started doing visual effects for movies. Dude, he was on the Spider Man, into the spider verse movie, like he’s actually credited. Oh, right. And so for me, here I am like, I’m doing speaking, leadership, entrepreneurship, all of this. I’m loving it. But you know which part of it I love the most? Man, it’s like when I get to jam with the videographers, when I get to jam with the photographers, that moment before I take the stage where we do a little bit of creative direction, it’s like, yo. So I’m gonna go on stage. When I say this, come behind me. Get this shot. You. And I’m now talking to the person working on my reel, who happens to be a Sama, so we’ve kind of collaborated back again, like we’ve done this whole amazing journey. And now he just sent me a message right before he logged on. He’s like, look, what do you think about this song over here? And I’m like, Oh, dude, that’s so epic. And he’s like, he showed me a video where it was used for like, an NBA sizzle reel. And I’m like, Oh, that’s perfect. I can see how we can, like, do this for a keynote version. But all of this is to say I’m doing this stuff right now, and it’s activating the part of me that is that inner child, and I’m realizing that I am at my best. I’m at my happiest when I’m playing. And look, when you come into the new material universe, you’re going to come into it. And when you get here, I imagine that you probably know a version of Hamza that you discovered through social media, through speaking, through writing, through teaching, you’ve met me in another realm. You’ve met me when the judge, when the architect, when my other faculties were in charge. When I’m talking to Herbert, I’m letting you know right now that like I am 100% in fool mode. I mean, just rewind back to the opening where those are. Man, like, like, the opening of this is so ridiculous. If my speakers bureau hears this, I think I’m gonna get an email. They’d be like, What are you doing? Dude, like, why are you rapping? Pam, like, we’re trying to sell you to RBC over here. Like you’re making ditty jokes. Come on, bro, take it easy. Well, like, I’ll
Herbert Lui 51:19
say really quickly, I’ll say those Virgil lectures, man. He’s like, I’m probably going to, like, get in trouble. He said, literally, the same thing as I’m gonna get an email from someone IKEA for showing this stuff that probably shouldn’t be showing you. But you know, it’s all good, right? And I think that’s like, a really special thing. It’s like, exactly what you said. So all of
Hamza Khan 51:39
this is to say, let me, let me, let me. Thread the needle here. What we need to do as creatives is really be intentional about recognizing and rewarding our inner child, rewarding that fool, that Jester. Because I truly believe that is where the best ideas come from. Just think about, you know, I love to make movie references, so I’m just gonna make one right now that comes to mind, everything, everywhere, all at once for all at once. Phenomenal movie, right? It’s just one of the most powerful movies I’ve ever seen. I remember sitting in the Chicago Soho House watching a screening of it, and me and Bailey just sat speechless for 20 minutes after Wow, and we were crying, Oh,
Herbert Lui 52:13
wow. What a detailed ad, too. Man, that’s a great solo house.
Hamza Khan 52:17
Oh yes. So good man, with their with their proper screening room and the little section on the side over there, but there’s that. So the thing, I forget the guy’s name. Man, I’m blanking over here, but he was in the Goonies. He was the architect, dude, Khan, Khan. Shout out to Khan, right? Khan, phenomenal movie. Man, yo. I’m just saying that right now. I’m visual, like, the visuals from that movie are seared into my subconscious, man like, oh my god, that one scene where him, him and homegirl are smoking outside, and he’s like, in another lifetime, I would have loved doing I would have loved doing taxes with you.
Herbert Lui 52:50
Oh my man. That was a Yo, that was that was a heartbreaking it was a beautiful moment. It was a beautiful moment and unlocked something in me, for sure, but Khan’s career On a side note, wow, that’s a whole other Yeah, we got to save that for another episode. Dream guest, dream guest, yeah, we got four. Now we got four. That guy’s an inspiration. 100% inspiration.
Hamza Khan 53:16
Oh my gosh, 100% and, and so is she as well, because I’ve just started re watching all of the Bond films, and I forgot that she was a Bond girl. And I’m like, man, what Michelle? Was a Bond girl? Michelle, bro, boom, blew my mind. The world is not enough. Tomorrow Never Dies. She’s a Bond girl in there, and a really good one too. Does it like subverts the tropes of the of the Bond girls? But anyways, the point I wanted to make with Khan’s character is a big part of being able to skip timelines in that universe is he has to do silly shit. And it can’t just be planned silly shit. It has to be truly spontaneous. He has to take out a piece of gum and stick it on his forehead. He has to, like, give himself a Purple Nurple. He has to, like, give a random person a wedgie, like, he has to do wild, spontaneous shit that Virgil would say, is going to get him in trouble, but that is what allows him to skip timelines. And I think that that metaphor is so powerful that when breakthroughs, literally through time and space in the movie are only possible when you do something that nobody expects and for you to be at your best as a creative person. And just so we’re clear, if you’ve made three episodes in you know that Herbert and I use creative and artist interchangeably. This is not a show just for artists. If you’re an artist listening, we’re honored, but we’re really speaking to anybody that is curious about creativity, that wants to bring and enhance creativity in any format. And I’m telling you, as somebody that prides themselves on being creative. I’m at my best when I’m being silly, when I’m being when I’m having fun, when I’m truly engaging with the material and in love with it. And I think this past week is like a perfect example of that night and day. There’s two, two keynotes that I did within within 24 hours. One, I would say the details were managed, and I just want. To be clear. So this was for a large bank in Canada, and the client was very involved. And I like this because usually organizations bring me in to be the expert, and they sort of, they give me a lot of, a lot of, a lot of permission space to do what I want to do. But I I always feel like a beginner. I always feel like a fool. And so there’s there’s a part of me that feels a huge level of responsibility to say the right thing and do the right thing for the client, and I don’t really get a lot of constructive criticism. And so when I have a client that’s very hands on, that wants to review the deck, that wants to review the notes, that wants to see me practice, that wants to tailor the message, it feels very involved, and it gives me flashbacks to what I experienced and referred to in our last episode, where we had that critical process in Review for my for myself. It was with Pearson, for Herbert. It was one of the companies that he worked with. And it can leave you, if you’re not careful, feeling less than and so when I eventually delivered the keynote, right before I took the stage, I was feeling a heaviness. I was like, Man, I have to deliver material here that is CO created. A lot of it has been heavily influenced by the client. Some of it you are not fully I know I want to be I want to be careful with how I say this. This might offend my political connects. I I loved the presentation, I loved the material, but there was very clearly some parts of it that weren’t mine, right? And as somebody who engages in the solo sport of speaking, because when I’m when I’m actually speaking, it’s a solo sport, but don’t get it twisted. It’s very much a team effort that goes into that production of the solo speaking, I know that I have a tendency to get to the parts that aren’t generated by me authentically, 100% and gloss over them, speed through them, and engage with them in a way that I think is obvious to the audience, that I don’t feel as passionately about. So I had to remind myself right before I took the stage to be like, No, dude, you you actually love this. Like, and the way that you can demonstrate that you love this is to have fun with it. So what you’re going to do up there is not read off those notes. You’re going to look at the slide, capture the essence, and you’re going to riff on it. So do a free association. That’s my that’s my cue to have fun on style, like see the visual, know where the audience is, and then free associate, and just trust that the How will figure itself out. If you know what you want to say, the How will figure itself out. So I did that, and I was able to deliver a really good presentation, in my opinion. But then immediately after I went to LA where the client was so hands off that they asked me for the slides right before I went on stage, like they had no idea what I was going to present about. They had a general topic, a general theme, but they’re like, We trust you to go up there and do what you want to do. And, man, I just went up there and I had fun. It was basically a stand up routine with an educational component to it, and my energy was noticeably different because I was playing, because I was jamming, I just felt much more present now in terms of the audience impact, I think they both did the same thing, but the common denominator between those experiences was I had fun, I played, and it could have easily gone Another way, had I chose with the bank client to not do that, I could have delivered a very stale, very formulaic presentation. Alternatively with the presentation in LA, I could have just phoned it in and done a candid plan presentation and not free associated the way that I did, long, roundabout way of saying that I am now experiencing, at 37 years of age, a sort of renaissance in my in my work, and I now believe that play, being foolish, having fun, being present is a superpower. It is truly the thing that is separating my good content from my great content. And it’s not even close.
Herbert Lui 59:01
Wow, that’s it was very interesting to hear the big shift you made was like, Hey, I’m going to loosen up a little bit, right? I’m not going to follow off the notes. I’m not even going to think ahead to the end of the presentation. I’m just, I’m going to look at the slide. I’m going to look at what I need to say, and then let’s give it like two minutes, and then it’s on to the next one, right? Yeah. And I think there is something really special about being spontaneous, and it takes a degree of maybe practice as well. Like, there’s a fine line between too structured and too spontaneous, right? I imagine, for example, if someone was, if someone was just starting out speaking, and they’re like, Oh, I’m just gonna go with like, no notes and stuff could go either way. The audience impact. They might have a lot of fun on stage, but the. Audience impact might not be as heavy, but for you, you’re like, very well practiced very well. You know, you’ve delivered so many of these speeches, it’s almost second nature to you. Like, look, this is like my home turf. Like the stage is so familiar, I can loosen up a little bit more now. And I think that’s where, like, the nuance and, like a lot of allowing your, your inner child, to play comes from, it’s like you got to trust yourself at the end of the day, right? And even if, let’s say, even if the audience impact is lower or the results don’t turn out as you wanted, you’re like, well, I’ll get them on the next one, you know. Like, it’s like constantly being allowing yourself to take those risks, and putting yourself in situations where the risk is not too much for the the inner child, the playful aspect, the idiot, whatever you want to call it, that side of you, it’s not too much for them to bear. Because sometimes that’s also the case where, like, you know, I mean, I don’t I think that when you’re a kid, sometimes you’re not set up to succeed. Do they just throw you into the deep end, right? And that’s also not, like, the most conducive to a playful kind of thing. It’s very much, hey, like, I needed to prepare. But then also now, like, let’s let go and let’s see where this goes. And there’s, like, a fine balance between both of those things, but I do love the call to action here, which is, hey, like in something you’re really familiar with, or something you’re not feeling enthusiastic about. Let’s see what you can do with it, and let’s see if you know, the next time that comes up, why don’t you try to have some fun with it? What can you do to make this a little bit more fun? What can you do to make it a little bit more honest or a little bit more humorous, right? All of that. And how would you like, how would you do it? What do you want to do with it? And also, maybe the last thing is, like, how would you mess it up? Like, that’s the interesting thing is, like, what can you do to, like, really leave your fingerprints on it and like, to tweak it the way that you would want to tweak it, because that’s your signature. So a little riff there on what you said, which is
Hamza Khan 1:02:08
brilliant man. And let me see if I can, like, condense this into a question for you, right? So, like, how would somebody do this? How would somebody get started nurturing, empowering and rewarding that playful aspect. And I love, I love the phrasing, playful aspect, by the way, it just seems, let’s stick
Herbert Lui 1:02:25
with that. Yeah, yeah. I think that there. I think the process actually, I mean, to start off with it might feel really mechanical, because you’re like, I have to, like, remember, to learn how to play. This is really weird, but that is effectively what you’re trying to do. You’re like trying to go back to like the inner four or five year old, because nobody has to be taught how to play. For SAR, you leave a kid with a with a paper and pencil, or an iPad or whatever it is. They know how to have fun with it. They do just no instructions required. And I think for many of us, we just kind of forget along the way sometimes. So the key is to try to remember it. And there are all sorts of ways you can do that. I think that for me, I found a I found the feeling I was going for in improv comedy. So I, you know, the there was a situation. I mean, I’ll tell a quick story, which is back in maybe 2016 late 2016 I was running my own business, and things were going horribly. I was like, you know, client work was really fluctuating. I think I just signed a new one right when I needed it too is like, just bridging me over. I had, like, my first month in the red and I was like, Oh, this is, like, really stressful. And long story short, I was like, not really taking good care of myself either. This I was dealing with the stress by like, eating horrible food, but super delicious, right? I was not eating breakfast. I was just like, drinking like a, like, a coffee, and then like, going straight into work and and like, crashing maybe around three, and that’s when I’ll eat, you know, like, What
Hamza Khan 1:04:07
year was this? Dude, 2016 maybe 2016 Dude, this is when you had, like, a strong Asian middle part.
Herbert Lui 1:04:15
Nah. Maybe that was more recent. I feel like maybe, I don’t know, I’m losing track of my sorry, you were stress eating.
Hamza Khan 1:04:24
Yeah, I was stress eating.
Herbert Lui 1:04:26
I was drinking a lot of caffeine, I was drinking a lot of booze, and my stomach just really wasn’t having it. It was like, look like, this is this is not good, not good. And so I started, you know, I started, like, having trouble, like, like, like, I just had a lot of stomach acid. And I was like, man, what is going on? So I went to the doctor, and they’re like, You seem fine. I think it’s just stress. And I was like, that’s like, so frustrating to me to hear. And I was like, Well, okay, I don’t really know how to fix the stress, but maybe I can relax. Relax a little more, right? Like that seems like the opposite. So I took a month, and I started work with a new client. And while I was doing that, I also just started doing, like, the most relaxing things I could think of. So I remembered a friend that told me about when they were really stressed. They went to improv comedy, and they really loved it. They joined a troop and everything. They went in the deep end. So I was, Okay, I’ll try that. I think, like, I there was, like, swimming, right? There’s like, a pool at the Sheraton, I think, or maybe it was the Hilton, it was the Hilton. Yeah, I was like, half in and half out. Is really cool. Yeah, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:05:39
I know. Because, like, there’s
Herbert Lui 1:05:39
like, these, there’s, like, the steam is coming up in the winter. This is winter, yeah. And then there was, there were, like, a handful of other things I forget. I totally like it slips my those are the two big ones. So I started going to gym again, and that, I started eating breakfast again. And, you know, healthier things, right? Eggs and oatmeal, just boring breakfast, but helpful. And I started doing all of those things. And that was how I started doing improv comedy. I would just do, like, one a week. I would drop into class and I wasn’t drinking, because I was like, Oh, I I want my stomach to heal up so I’m not going to drink. And after two hours of dropping into like an intro improv class, it felt like I had two beers. Because the improv class is so special. You go in and they, first of all, it’s like 12 people have never seen each other before. I’m going in without friends. I just went solo. And some of them know each other. Most of us don’t. So they do all these fun exercises to build the group together, and then they start doing like these, yes and exercises, right? So yes a yes, and exercises, in case you’re unfamiliar with, it is basically, there’s, you know, there’s a scenario that someone suggests, and then they’re like, acting it out, and then somebody else joins them and said yes, and I’m gonna do this, or yes, I’m gonna do that. The only rule is, you can’t say no. So there’s, like, all of right, there’s all of these things that just keep escalating. And you’re like, oh, like, this turned out to be such an interesting story, just when you like, mash yes and two or three brains together, and it was you leave feeling so uninhibited. You’re like, oh, like, I feel so loose. I feel so free. And I that is usually how I feel after drinking two beers. I remember, like, going to a dinner after with a friend and and like, their friends and like, I got laughs like I’ve never heard before. Like I was like, man, I’ve never been this funny before in my life. But also, like, it was just so because my brain was, like, primed on improv. You know, it’s like, so free and like, I just didn’t really care if I got the laugh or not. I was just like being me. It felt like I was free to be me. And so that’s the feeling that I aim for, that’s like, what I consider like a buffet, for the playful aspect, for me, right? I think for for you, it’s the music videos, clearly, right? There’s, but there’s also so many other things in this world, like for somebody else, it could be playing music and just jamming. It could be like writing poetry. It could be drawing on a on a napkin for like five minutes. It could be reading outside. You know, it could be whatever it is, long the that’s a long winded answer, but I wanted to say the whole thing, because beautiful. I didn’t go out looking for a playful aspect of me. I really was like, Yo, I’m super stressed. And the doctor told me I need to not stress. And so this is what I’m trying to do. And it just so happened that that’s where I remembered, oh, this is how you play as a grown up now, and it was a really safe environment to do that. I went back like so many times, and it was, it was great fun. This is a reminder to self to also like New York’s the place to do it, man, I should be going to these more.
Hamza Khan 1:08:56
Let me ask you a question, dude. Is Yeah, is one of the reasons you and Bernice moved to New York to play, not
Herbert Lui 1:09:02
explicitly, man, I’m gonna be honest with you, I feel like one of the
Hamza Khan 1:09:06
Chicago or like, why not? You know, Washington or Sydney? Yeah, I
Herbert Lui 1:09:12
think, I think the big thing was work at the time. Man, with New York, like, but Bernice is an artist, and I had, I work in tech, so I, you know, previously, and so I had gotten a job offer at figma, and the set, like the simple, even just the simple math of it, they’re like, Oh, we could hire you in Toronto, but the salary is, like, twice as much if you go to New York. I’m like, well, like, Okay, I’ll take the I’ll take twice the salary. Then, right, and the rest of the team was here and all the stuff. And I think so. I mean, now that we’re saying it, though, I think that was the conscious part of me saying, hey, like, this is a really great opportunity. But there definitely was a subconscious or unconscious experience of like, hey, like, I came here a lot throughout the 2010s all like, I never even. Considered moving here because I thought it was impossible. I was like, you know, there’s too much stuff going on. I’ll never get anything done, and it’s so expensive. And like, what about the visa situation? And so this opening, again, kind of presented itself. And I was like, Well, all I need to do is say yes, so let’s say yes and see where it goes. And that was kind of the whole, the whole, I don’t think that was the whole force, but that was one of the driving through lines for why we moved here. And Bernice, of course, the city oozes, are we both love art. She’s a practicing artist. So, yeah, it’s, there was a no brainer there, from from her perspective, I think,
Hamza Khan 1:10:35
is it a reason why you’re remaining in New York?
Herbert Lui 1:10:38
I think it could be, man, I think it really could be, I’ll say this. I don’t know. It’s up in the air how long I’m gonna be here. I don’t, I don’t know if this is, like, the place we’re gonna settle down. That being said, though, that that like, that sense of impermanence also makes me, like, soak the city in up a lot more. Like, almost every day, I’m like, oh, I want to, like, just make the most of it. I want to just really enjoy it. But the same time a part of me, you know, we I see these, I mean, I’m, I’m around, like, like, the NYU area a lot, like, it’s just, like, not that far from where I am. Or, like, Pace University is really close by as well. I see all these kids running around, not like actual kids, but like, you know, these teenagers. And I was like, oh, man, I really wish I moved here in my 20s, because, like, you really have, like, you really have that sense of uninhibited, whatever, right? Like, yes, I’ll spend $100 on a concert ticket, no problem. And, and it’s like, now I’m like, I don’t know if I would spend, like, the last person I went to see for that amount of money was Ronnie Chang and it was really good. But I was also like, well, like, I’m not doing this every weekend. Whereas, as a student, you’re like, so much more careless. The playful aspect is so strong aspect, right, right? Right? But now it’s like, oh, like, the, you know, there the the math equivalent of the architect, like the financial planner, the CFO, is like, don’t you have other goals that we kind of could use the money for these other things? So anyway, all that, that’s a long winded answer, but I’m curious about you too. Like, have you found New York to nurture your playful aspect and that side of you? Dude, so
Hamza Khan 1:12:27
much, man, it’s somebody asked me how New York is recently. It was my boy, Chris, man, and I met him at the event that I was speaking at. He’s like, how is New York? And I’m like, Dude, it’s everything I want it to be, and more, I love it. I hate it. I have mixed feelings about it, but it’s just constantly challenging and pushing me. And I have fun here. Man, it is a playground. Bailey, and I often refer to it as a playground. We are truly liberated here. And that’s you use two words quite frequently over the last couple of minutes. You talked about uninhibited and you talked about free, and I think about those words a lot, right? Uninhibited? Another way to say that a synonym would be fearless. And when you look at the word free, F, R, E, E, it looks very similar to fear, right? And I would say that they’re on opposite ends of the spectrum. You can visualize fear as a lack of freedom, or just the concern that comes from the potential loss of freedom, so on and so forth, especially when you get into the conservation of resources theory, which would make a really good episode down the road. So I think about who I was becoming when I was in Toronto, and I felt myself growing up too fast. I really did. There’s just a lot happening. So if I can, if I can, bring this into focus by sharing an anecdote. Here, I have a niece. She’s three years old right now, and to your point, All she knows is how to play. Everything is a game to her. She doesn’t have the language, doesn’t have the concept, doesn’t understand rules. She can’t even spell recession, you know, like, inflation doesn’t mean anything to her. Like, inflate a balloon. Like, what? Like, the world of adults is just so bizarre to her. And everyone gravitates around her, especially to see the way that my mom and my dad look at her. They become fools. They become playful idiots. Their playful aspect is a light because suddenly, the 5060, plus years of rules and stress and paying bills and taxes and, you know, notices from lawyers and creditors that all goes away when they’re with this person, when they’re with this three year old kid, they get to play basketball, roll around in the grass. They get to become animals. And, you know, get to, get to, get get, get to, you know, attend her basketball practices, so on and so forth. And even when she’s in basketball practice, they’re trying to enforce rules, and she’s a maverick. She’s doing her own thing. They’re like, get in line and shoot. She’s like, Nah, I’m gonna go over here and I see this, and I finally start to understand Donda a little bit more, what dondas philosophy was, which is, how do we keep this going? For as long as possible. From an academic perspective, in fact, there’s a book here. Since we have a truce, I can’t actually say what the book is, but it’s a parenting book by Donda. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which is cool,
Herbert Lui 1:15:12
cool. Highly. I think about that one too. Actually, there was also a grammar book. She’s like a so Donna West, is this great English professor? Yes, and yes she, she, ah, they like recently compiled a book with her lectures. I’ve been meaning to read that one. That’s so cool, though. Yeah,
Hamza Khan 1:15:33
I was about to go into into a whole Donda thing right now. This is how playful it gets.
Herbert Lui 1:15:41
That’s the thing. I mean, hold on. I’ll talk, I’ll talk about it after. But why don’t you No, go first.
Hamza Khan 1:15:46
So um, in seeing the way my parents deal with her, they do this thing that Mom, if you listen to this, I love you, but like, there’s thing that my mom and my dad do with her that I I take issue with. They give her a lot of thought, terminating and limiting, words and concepts. Stop slow, don’t, you know. And I look at her climbing up the stairs, and I’m secretly like, you go. Keep going. Keep on climbing until you fall down. She’s jumping on the couch first my dad’s first innings. Like, No, don’t. Don’t jump on the couch, sit down, and I’m like, No, don’t. Don’t do this. Don’t. Don’t impose our world’s restrictions and limitations on this soul, because our status quo is then going to become her status quo. And I can tell you as an adult that is brushing up against the status quo all the time. It needs to end, because the status quo is not making most people happy, it’s not actually conducive to the utopia that we all seek, and that’s a big part of why I do the work that I do as a leadership researcher, as a speaker, as an entrepreneur, is because I’m trying to change the hearts of leaders, to reshape the status quo so that everybody can experience the freedom, the lack of inhibition that those who are on on the upswing of society can experience, and I get to experience that too, because I’m here in New York, and I’m here in New York in large part because of the work that I get to do, that I get to do with my partner, Bailey, and the amount of money that it requires for us to enjoy this life over here, and time that comes with it, and that introduces a level of freedom. So what does this have to do with with this kid? What does it have to do with New York? Let me, let me button it all together. And seeing the way that my parents are with my niece, I’m now able to fill in the blanks about, like, the period of my childhood that was formative, that I have no memory of, and I’m like, Ah, they were like this with me, my hyper vigilance, my anxieties, my imposter syndrome, so much of who I am is governed by a voice that was fear, driven, that came from scarcity, that came from parents worried about loss, and they with love, impressed their restrictions, constraints and limitations on me, and as I grew up, I started to find myself getting caught in those traps. It’s like, oh yeah, my reason to go to university, honestly, was because my dad didn’t like the answer. If I want to become a movie director, I wanted to go to OCAD. And I only chose OCAD and movie director because a guidance counselor told me that I had to. I didn’t want to. Man, like school is a thing that my mom told me to have to go to. I didn’t want I didn’t want to go to school. I was perfectly happy on the street that I was on with my dinky little get camera that recorded eight megabytes at a time, with my pack of Yu Gi Oh cards and my Razor scooter, that was my life, and I just wanted to stay in that moment. I truly think I was at my happiest when I was maybe 14 or 16, when it was just me and my boys playing all day, and it seemed like summer would never end. And that’s a feeling that I think people want to capture. I mean, it’s, it’s the stuff of songs, dude, right? Summer 69 when I look back now that summer seemed to last forever, what a powerful idea, man. And now I’m in a New York minute where it’s like, I’m here for literally 48 hours, and I have to get back on the road and do this work again. And just so we’re clear, I’m really grateful that I get to do this work. But, man, I want to play I want to hang out with my wife. I want to watch movies. I want to go to museums. I want to go to art galleries. I want to eat at, you know, at all kinds of establishments. I want to do fancy tasting menus. I want to do hole in the wall joints. I want to be silly. I want to start my day and not know how it’s going to end, and walk around New York and figure it out. So when I recognized that aspect in me, when I was in Toronto, where I started to feel all kinds of pressure, this is when a lot of mental health challenges started to bubble up for me, when I started to feel like, you know, my boundaries were slipping, and I started to feel not used necessarily, but like I didn’t have any control over my time in social life, because I’m such a people pleaser. I was like, something’s got to change here, because I know how this is going to end. I see this with all of my friends, all of my social circles. They’re currently in this track of like, get. Us, you know, get a secure job, buy a house, start a family, and then just the game, the game’s over, like, this is it for the rest of our lives. And I looked at that and I was like, I can’t do it. I’m not ready. I’m not I’m not ready to go to school again. Because I know, I know what happened the last time I made this decision, the last time I said, Yes, I want to go to school. I was disengaged. The last time I said, Yes, I’m going to take a job, I was, I don’t know, I experienced a monster manager. So I’m like, I know through three times is going to be a pattern. I’m like Bailey. When we come to New York the way you described in the 2010s it’s energizing. We have a lot of fun. Here. We are at our best. We are our best selves here. Let’s just move. Let’s just go there. We have no kids. We’re digital nomads. We own the means of our own. We’re entrepreneurs. We’re the CEOs of our company. So let’s just do it. And there’s no real game plan here. There’s no logic. So I promise I’m gonna wrap this up. I just covered a lot of
Herbert Lui 1:20:54
ground. Take your time. Man, take your time. There’s no need to wrap it up. And so
Hamza Khan 1:20:58
when buddy asked me, like, how is New York, I was like, I gotta be honest with you, man, like it’s probably the most illogical decision I’ve ever made. It is purely emotional, purely spontaneous. The desire to move to New York is animated by the playful aspect of me. Me being here is to you know what? I’m just gonna say it taking my inner child. I’m fighting for custody as I look down in my diamond encrusted piece like this is why I’m here, man, like I just friends family, the reason why I’m in New York, my confession to you is that I don’t want to grow up as fast as the rest of you are. Straight up. That’s why I’m wearing this mouse hat on a Saturday morning talking to my boy about art, creativity, and telling these long winded stories. Because, like,
Herbert Lui 1:21:46
I love it.
Hamza Khan 1:21:47
I just love that. You know, what’s cool? Listeners love it, man. As I’m saying this, I’m looking at a little, I’m looking at a little like Notepad over here that says School of the Holy Child. Whoa, crazy, right?
Herbert Lui 1:21:59
That’s cool. Inner
Hamza Khan 1:22:00
Child, sacred, blah, blah, blah, but yeah, man, I don’t know why I got fired up about that. I just felt like I there’s a lot of survivors remorse that comes with this. I don’t mean to get like, super dark and deep here, but like LeBron talks about this that you know, as you succeed and as you do something that’s very different from all of your friends and family, depending on your upbringing, you might feel something called survivor’s remorse, like you’re doing something wrong by having fun, by playing and succeeding in the way that you are. And I’m not saying my life is better than anybody else’s. I would even argue that, given some of the mental health challenges that I deal with regularly, I don’t get to enjoy and have as much fun as I want. But me being here is an attempt. It is a it is a striving to play. It is a striving to reward constantly the playful aspect. And the cool thing about my life now is that with the job and the access that I have, I get to do some pretty awesome shit for my inner child. For example, I was earlier this year. It was in the summer I spoke in North, like, a couple hours north of Toronto, and on the way back, I passed by Canada’s Wonderland and driving, check this out. Herbert, right? I’m driving back down, and I’m like, so I could go back home right now and work on that paper, but I have the entire afternoon off, should we? And then I had, like, a quick dialog with my inner child. Inner Child was like, Yo, let’s go. Yeah, solo Wonderland. Listen, Nana, dude,
Herbert Lui 1:23:24
what did you what’s still there right now? What did are there classics still there? Like, is the wild beast still? I’m never, I went on wild piece once. I’m never going again, but, you know, always,
Hamza Khan 1:23:34
all of it’s there. And I remember that one line from the New Jurassic Park reboot, where they’re like, the dinosaurs have to be bigger. Their teeth have to be longer. Their claws have to be bigger. Yo, the shit that you remember from a kid, they have taken that and given it steroids. Man, like, Whatever, whatever was happening in early UFC. They just like juice, these roller coasters, and they have become, man, like, I’m not even kidding. There’s one roller coaster that just goes up and it’s like a friggin 9090, foot drop, like a 90 degree angle drop there. That’s what roller coasters are right. Now, they just combined Superman, that’s I went there, and I was like, Yo, okay. You know, the cool thing about being an adult that is in touch with their playful aspect is the adult can hook shit up. So I’m like, Hey, adult, let’s let’s upgrade. Let’s get the Fast Pass. Let’s get the wristband. Let’s get the thing that lets you do all of the rides. Let’s get, man, I just had a blast over there. So much fun. Another thing that I do, right? It’s like, hey, one of the things I love doing as a kid was going to the theaters and watching movies. You know what I can do now? AMC stubs, member, let’s go all in, watch as many movies as I want. I can watch a movie, and then I can just go, you know, Have food and go back into the theater again. And, like, I don’t have any adults in my life telling me that I can’t do that otherwise. And I’m playing Xbox the other day, I’m like, you know, it would be great if my Xbox was faster. And you know, who can make that happen? Adult Hamza. We just go, and we just bought a faster Xbox, right? And then, wait,
Herbert Lui 1:24:59
what’s it like? Like, you had an old Xbox, so you bought the new one, or, well, I
Hamza Khan 1:25:03
had an, I had an old Xbox, and I was playing that, and I’m like, Yo, man, these loading screens are taking forever. And I’m like, and I wish I had, I wish I had a faster Xbox. And I’m like, you know how this used to go in the past? I used to ask my mom and my dad to help me. And I’m like, Yo, dude. I’m 32 years old. What? Bro?
Herbert Lui 1:25:23
Your child’s like, Bro.
Hamza Khan 1:25:25
My child was like, dog, right? And this happened recently, too. I was like, Yo Yo. I’m playing with this controller, and I’m like, Yo man, this controller is whack. I’m like, oh, you know what? I live in New York. There’s a Microsoft store that’s like, 50 minutes for me, let’s just go and buy a controller. It’s as seamless as that. And so long winded way of saying my strategy here, I think my initial question to you is like, how do you nurture and reward your inner child? Mine is very much the same way. It’s just like, you just have to do it. Recognize that it’s there. Recognize that playful aspect is there. Value it number one, and be intentional and like you, like you said earlier. It might be a little dry at first, or you didn’t use those words, but it might, it might seem a little clinical, but you eventually get the hang of it. Like in my calendar, are things that say, like, play video games. I have to put that in my calendar because, yeah, I have to make an appointment with myself and check in. And don’t. Don’t let that don’t let that light. Don’t let that inner child fade away. Really, don’t do do whatever you can. Doesn’t have to be as dramatic as moving to New York that was a desperate measure on my part. But find your own way to do that. Really, find your own way to stay connected with that inner child.
Herbert Lui 1:26:37
I love that man. I love that I think you hit it on the nose, the first step is listening to it. And it’s its voice is so quiet and so timid now, because a lot of times, you know, this might be a little dramatic, but it’s like, a little beaten up, a little starved, you know, it’s been a little, it’s been the cage a little too long. You’re like, ah, go back there. And first of all, it’s like, let it out and listen. And be like, Yo, like, what’s this thing? So for me, I started I every day I meditate, and that sense of mindfulness has me a little more in tune the rest of the day. I don’t really feel much better after meditating. Be honest with you, I don’t maybe a little clearer on the good day on a bad day. I was like, that was not helpful at all. But I noticed through the rest of the day, I can hear things in my brain a little more clearly, and I’m more in tune with what’s around me a little bit more clearly, and it makes everything better. And so these things that you said of, oh, like, I want to do this. Hey, let’s go do that, right? I’m like, you know, oh, I’m like, I love these little things, man, you know, we talk about big things, little things, they don’t have to be big if you want to, let’s say you want to get out of the house. You just get out of the house. You might not be able to go all the way to New York or wherever it is, you know, but it’s like, you can just step out, you can go wander around and be like, I’m bored. I’m gonna go hang out, right? That’s what kids do. They go hang out. My friend Nick, he was, he was talking about also going to, you know, his his girlfriend really loves roller coasters. And he’s like, you know, we drove to an amusement park. It was like, two hours away. They’re about to leave. She’s like, let’s go. On one more. Let’s go. More. Let’s go on this crazy one. And he’s like, Ah, all right, fine, right? He’s getting on and he sees these kids at the front of the line, and he’s like, you know, putting his, like, wallet in his pocket and making sure it doesn’t fall out and stuff, and which is exactly what I would do. And he sees these kids, and they’re like, you know, they have glasses, they have their phones out. They like, could not care less, like, it’s not even in their operating like, the perspective of the world that this, that something bad is going to happen, or, like, even if it does, like, the consequences are whatever, right? And there is something very childish about that, but also very childlike. And for him, you know, he wrote this at his blog. It’s Nik dot art, great blog. And he also writes every day. And he was saying, like, Oh, that was so refreshing, right? Just to see that and to be around that and be like, hey, like, yeah, I can loosen up too. And that’s what he did. He loved the ride, the ride, the drive home wasn’t bad at all. And he was like, Oh, I was like, Oh, I was just worried about that for no reason. But that image of, like, wow, these kids really, like, they, they don’t give two whatevers about this thing, you know, it’s like, whatever. I’m just gonna enjoy this ride. And then whatever happens after, happens after, and somebody will take care of it. And for sure. You know, I want to, I think for me, it’s, it’s that’s, like, the extreme right. I’m not telling you to go be a kid, because that’s, that’s not possible, like, you can’t go back. That’s the sad part about growing up, is you can’t go back, no matter what you want to do. And I think the sooner you accept that, though, I’m a grown person now, but there is still I’m. Me though, right? Like, yes, I’m a grown person, but I’m still me, and there’s still this child like aspect and this playful aspect that you have, that you love, that maybe is hurting, maybe is too quiet, maybe it’s whatever, and maybe you don’t want to visit because there is a lot of pain there. But I’m telling you, the sooner you visit it, the sooner you get in touch with all of that and that playful aspect, that’s when these really interesting things start to get unblocked, like you really start to feel better about things. And if there is no time, it’s exactly what you said you put you put in your calendar. One little thing I like for me, you know, living here, but I think living anywhere, really, is you just show up to something like, 30 minutes early, and then you go hang out in that area and you see what’s happening there, you know, like, that is, like, a really great, oh, cool. There’s, like, a, there’s a really great place I can get an apple turnover. I love apple turnover, so I’m gonna go do that. You know, like, you can just do these things when you have the time. Or, you know, like, just go, go wait in line for something. Like kids. Kids do that too. Like, I was like, I don’t have time for a line. They don’t worry about that stuff. You know, you want to go to a 50 cent book signing. You go to the 50 cent book signing. So anyway, I went on a I think that is the thing that I would want a listener to take away. It’s like, just listen to it, and you’ll know. And if you if you can’t hear it yet, then just make a list of those things you know, like, things you like to do as a kid, or things that interest you now, and just go do them. It could be as simple as watching a movie by yourself. It’s cool. Go eat your favorite food. Go do whatever, because you know it’s like it’s feeding that side. And then once that playful aspect is more nurtured, then you’ll really hear it, because that voice will be a little bit louder, usually a little bit impulsive, usually a little spontaneous. And that’s what the point of growing up is, is to know when you can tap into that side and when you can That’s maturity.