Episode 4 summary:
Herbert Lui and Hamza Khan discuss their respective weeks, with Herbert focusing on his book and social media engagement, and Hamza on his keynote speaking engagements. They explore three different roles in the creative process—starter, developer, and finisher—emphasizing the importance of understanding your strengths and complementing them with others. Herbert identifies as a starter, while Hamza sees himself as a finisher. They share insights on the importance of caring about your work, the challenges of balancing tasks, and the significance of finishing projects to their full potential, using examples like Shigeru Miyamoto and Childish Gambino.
Useful links:
- How to get designers in the right position by Kevin Ervin Kelley
- On owning your lane, pouring all your heart into your art, and validation by Michael Thompson
- Starting, developing, and finishing (via Herbert’s blog)
Unedited transcript:
Editor’s note: This transcript was automatically generated by AI, and we have not edited below this sentence.
Herbert Lui [00:00:10]
What’s new, everyone? You are now listening to new material. My name is Herbert Lui. I am an author of the book Creative Doing. I am also a marketing advisor. I’ve worked with over 40 companies. I recently counted 40 companies. Not that that is a great way to measure. I mean, it’s a good way to measure how many people have trusted me.
Herbert Lui [00:00:31]
So trust me.
Hamza Khan [00:00:34]
Trust me.
Herbert Lui [00:00:34]
I just broke my own rule. I’m like, I never. What is the quickest way to get someone to not trust you is to say, trust me. So don’t trust me. But over 40 companies have trusted me. Folks like Figma, companies like Shopify, or even Intuit. And now I’m a director of marketing at a company called fgx.
Herbert Lui [00:00:53]
You got it. Hardware you got to ship globally. You should come talk to us fgx.com and today I am joined by, as always, the honorable, the incomparable Hamza Khan. Talk to him.
Hamza Khan [00:01:10]
It’s your boy, Hamza Khan, aka HK, aka Young Thug, aka Hamza Hovito, aka Mr. Internationally Known on the microphone. Okay, I just dropped three names that if they were on a domain registry equivalent for hip hop monikers, they would be up for grabs right now because Young Thug is currently facing a RICO trial.
Hamza Khan [00:01:35]
Jay Z is probably going to catch a case. And Diddy, I think he’s locked up. I haven’t been keeping up, but all three of those names are up for grabs and as far as I know, nobody has laid claim to them. So your boy snatched them all up. Young Thug, hamza Hovito, and Mr.
Hamza Khan [00:01:52]
Internationally known on the Microphone. They’re mine now. Oh, hello.
Herbert Lui [00:01:55]
There we go. There we go. Watch the throne, eh? You leave the throne for a second, Hamza’s gonna. Hamza’s going for it.
Hamza Khan [00:02:02]
I got my eye. I got my eye on the big seat.
Herbert Lui [00:02:05]
There we go. I love it. I love it. Well, talk to me, Hamza. How was the week? It’s been. It’s been kind of. It’s been a wild week for you, eh?
Hamza Khan [00:02:14]
Dude, it’s been a wild week. And I just so look forward to these conversations every Saturday because I just get to be goofy. I get to be dumb, I get to be silly, I get to be flippant and just myself, you know? So, yes, it was a really, really busy week for me.
Hamza Khan [00:02:30]
This week was the equivalent of a playoff series for a keynote speaker, which was every single day, another city, another keynote, another client, another topic. So the amount of context switching, the amount of mental, physical, emotional, and even spiritual discipline needed to accomplish all five of these events required was challenging to say the least, and it really took a lot out of me.
Hamza Khan [00:02:57]
But it was also very restorative, very regenerative. I finished the week feeling really good about the work, feeling good about my craft, feeling good about where my career is going, where the messages are going, where the zeitgeist is going. So what’s really interesting is I reflected on this just yesterday on the flight over, which I have another story for you about listening to new material on planes, which I would highly recommend.
Hamza Khan [00:03:20]
This show passes the walking through New York test. It also passes the flying back and forth from Toronto to New York test, especially on Porter, because there’s no wifi on Porter. So what else are you going to do? You’re going to listen to new material, of course. But I was journaling yesterday on the flight and I wrote down, I don’t think I could have done this week that I just had three years ago.
Hamza Khan [00:03:45]
I went pro as a keynote speaker four years ago. The first year I don’t really count because it was all virtual and I was in the comfort of my own home. And I would travel the world from room to room. I would do a keynote in Sydney in the morning, I would travel to Mumbai in the evening, and then I would do a couple of virtuals for Toronto, North America.
Hamza Khan [00:04:06]
It was relatively easy, minus the existential dread. But then I got thrust into the world of full time keynote speaking, which required me to live out of a suitcase. And just the physical toll alone was a lot. Just traveling to and from, sitting in airports, sitting on planes. It sounds like it’s innocuous, but I’m telling you, as somebody who’s doing it quite a bit, it does get taxing.
Hamza Khan [00:04:27]
It does wear on your joints, it does wear on your mental health as well. So I’ve gradually been building myself up for the week that I had and I feel like I came out on top. I feel like I won that championship or that champ. I think I’m still in the championships right now.
Hamza Khan [00:04:40]
I got a couple more series left, but I won that series and I’m really proud of it. So thank you for asking. Dude, what about you?
Herbert Lui [00:04:47]
Well, I’ve been good. I mean, I want to say really quickly, that sounds amazing. It’s. It’s challenging. I imagine it’s like, hey, it’s an artist going on tour, right? And that’s like the most taxing part of the whole process, I’m sure. It’s also like, I’ve heard this saying, I forget who or this Idea, the tour itself.
Herbert Lui [00:05:13]
The best part of the tour is that one or two hours you’re on stage. But everything else, like the hours, days, weeks of prepping that your team does and that you have to do, and then on top of that, the commuting, you’re on the road, you’re not eating home cooked food. You have to really fit in the workout wherever you can.
Herbert Lui [00:05:34]
All of those things, it’s not, it’s. You know, I heard my friend James, who I work with at fgx say this. It’s logistics is not one big problem you need to solve. It’s like a thousand little problems that you have to get right. And that sounds exactly the same when you’re talking about going on a tour, especially for Keynote speaking, dude, 100%.
Hamza Khan [00:05:58]
And if I could give you a small glimpse into what this looks like. I absolutely draw inspiration from the world of music, from the world of sports specifically. I watch documentaries on and I watch behind the scenes footage of rappers, rock stars, comedians, basketball players. I’m watching the starting five documentary right now on Netflix and I just can’t believe it.
Hamza Khan [00:06:18]
Like Bailey played it this morning and I was like, whoa, is this a TV show? Is this a movie? And what is this? And she’s like, it’s a documentary. It’s like a multiple episode episodic documentary. And I was like, wow. Unfettered access to LeBron James, Jayson Tatum, Jimmy Butler, Diamante Sabonis and Karl Anthony Towns.
Hamza Khan [00:06:39]
Like, how did they do this? Last year they filmed all of this. And it’s just for me, it is the equivalent of productivity, peak performance porn. I get to just get like, oh my God, the material that you like, brains like you. And I can extract from this just like the one liners that like even Jimmy Butler, the opening episode, him talking about doing the whole emo cut and showing up on game day as a way to express himself.
Hamza Khan [00:07:01]
I’m like, oh yeah, I gotta table this, I gotta talk to Herbert about it. But yes, I’ll give you a small glimpse into what the discipline looks like on my end. So I had to travel from, I believe it was Winnipeg to Edmonton. So I did a keynote in the morning. I traveled to Winnipeg that afternoon.
Hamza Khan [00:07:18]
Other way around, I was in Winnipeg. I traveled to Edmonton that afternoon. I got into my hotel, I immediately started ironing my clothes, prepping for the next day, and then I went to sleep to be able to get six hours of sleep. And then I woke up the next morning and I’m up at 4, I believe.
Hamza Khan [00:07:34]
Nothing is open except for 24 hours at McDonald’s. So I go. I work out first thing. It’s like a. It’s empty in the gym. It’s eerie. It’s almost like I’m turning every corner. I’m afraid that the twins from the Shining are going to show up. So it’s mental, it’s physical, it’s emotional. And then I got to replenish myself because I’ve worked out, I’ve broken down my muscles.
Hamza Khan [00:07:54]
I need to get the protein in. How do I get protein in at 4 in the morning in Edmonton? Well, McDonald’s is open, and I order two Egg McMuffins without the bread. And I’m just eating these sad egg patties, two of them. And I’m like, this is it. This is what it takes to perform at the level that we hold ourselves to.
Hamza Khan [00:08:14]
You just have to submit yourself to the process. And the process demands that if I am to have protein to allow for my brain and my body to be at its best, then if it comes in the form of two patties, if it comes in the form of a protein bar, if it comes in the form of a protein shake, I can’t get picky about it because this is so much bigger than my preference.
Hamza Khan [00:08:32]
Look at that. Boom.
Herbert Lui [00:08:35]
Protein.
Hamza Khan [00:08:35]
This is the life we chose.
Herbert Lui [00:08:39]
It’s wild. I hear you. It’s very. First of all, there’s a. I mean, no, I’m gonna refrain from the line. I was just gonna say, maybe the next time you can stay at the Aria, not the Doubletree. You tell the clients, you’re like, I’m.
Hamza Khan [00:08:58]
Staying eight minutes in the Aria. There we go. Eight minutes in.
Herbert Lui [00:09:02]
Anyway, Yes, I had a protein bar just before this. Yeah, dude, I want to do it. I was. Yeah, it’s Saturday morning. But I was also saying, hey, like, I’m gonna go down. I’m gonna get a protein bar because we record these. It took me, like, half an hour to get this whole thing set up.
Herbert Lui [00:09:18]
The situation. I’ll take a picture at some point and paint the picture for everyone. But, yeah, I. You know, Bernice, my wife Bernice, was like, hey, maybe you should get two protein bars. I was like, that sounds about right.
Hamza Khan [00:09:30]
That’s probably a good idea. And I love that you’re serious about this. I love that Bernice is serious about this. And I think it’s certainly the two of you being producers, creators, entrepreneurs at the highest level, living in New York, holding yourselves to this standard that necessitates constant striving. Last night, I Had dinner with a good friend of mine, Zach, CEO.
Hamza Khan [00:09:53]
One of Canada’s most admired CEOs, I should add, a very successful company.
Herbert Lui [00:09:59]
What’s the company?
Hamza Khan [00:10:00]
Lupio. Are you familiar?
Herbert Lui [00:10:01]
Oh, yeah. Cool.
Hamza Khan [00:10:02]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lupio, man. Shout out to Zach. Shout out to Lupio. And we got to talking. It just naturally comes up when we’re together. We just talk about peak performance, leadership, you know, achievement, so on and so forth. And like, without saying it, we all arrived at the table at the conclusion that one of the values that we hold dear is can.
Hamza Khan [00:10:26]
Can be mapped out on this phrase. Give a. And there’s a company that I did some. Some speaking for earlier this year called Jobber, based out of Vancouver, I believe. And one of their values is explicitly give a. Like. Like, it’s like, accountability, collaboration, and then give a. Like, it’s just so jarring to see it.
Hamza Khan [00:10:46]
But when I saw it, I’m like, yeah, man, I appreciate this. Especially when I read their manifesto, I’m like, I resonate so much with organizations, with people, with entities that just give a shit. And like you, dude, Herbert, you write every single day like you give a shit about writing. You give a shit about your audience.
Hamza Khan [00:11:03]
You eating these two protein bars, it’s not pleasurable. Like, you’re not going to get any mouth pleasure from eating a protein bar, but your body’s going to thank you for it. Your mind is going to thank you for it. You’re going to have energy throughout the day because you give a shit. And we did things this morning to summon the energy, the time, and.
Hamza Khan [00:11:20]
Sorry, to carve out the time, muster the energy and sustain the attention to record this podcast. Because materialists, we give a shit. We give a shit about you, we give a shit about each other. I think more people should just tune into this idea of giving a shit and feel free to call it that.
Hamza Khan [00:11:35]
You can call it care, you can call it quality assurance, you can call it thoughtfulness, whatever you want. But I think give a shit really gets to the heart of it. It’s like, it’s raw, it’s aggressive. It’s meant to be jarring because if you’re not giving a shit, you should know it for sure.
Herbert Lui [00:11:55]
And I think it’s also that simple and that difficult as well. It’s really easy to give a shit for the things that you care about or that you like. Sometimes you gotta give a shit about the stuff that you really don’t like, or you gotta give a shit in situations where there’s not enough time and energy.
Herbert Lui [00:12:14]
To give a shit. And we’re going to dive into that in this topic we got for you today a little bit later. It’s perfect. It’s perfect. I want to quickly go over my week, too. I think for me, I took us really down the scenic route. But I’m glad you shared all that.
Herbert Lui [00:12:30]
That was really insightful and really helpful. It really just shows what it takes to excel as a keynote speaker and to excel as a thinker, really. I think for me, you know, been you. If you’ve listened to episode one and two and three, you’re gonna be hearing about this book I’m working on and previous episode.
Herbert Lui [00:12:51]
I was like, hey, I’m just gonna have to get it done in two weeks. Somehow. I was working on it this week. I’m like, there’s no way I’m getting it done in two weeks. But I was also like, you know what? The projects that I was putting off and that I was hoping to pull in eventually, once I’m done this book, I’m just gonna have to figure out a way to start them in small ways.
Herbert Lui [00:13:12]
And so this week, for example, I got back on social media. I’m back on X, Twitter, whatever we call this thing now. I don’t know if we have an agreement to that yet, but I’m gonna get back on LinkedIn, back on Threads. I just turned on my threads account, actually, and yeah, it was nice getting back on on Twitter, X Zitter, whatever we call it.
Herbert Lui [00:13:35]
I’m super confused whenever I say this. It’s easier to type. Well, let’s call it Twitter.
Hamza Khan [00:13:39]
Okay, sure, sure.
Herbert Lui [00:13:41]
So I remembered seeing. And the way this works is I had a post, one of my first posts in a long time that actually hit because now I’m actually back on there and actively messaging and replying and things. And yeah, I got like 10,000 impressions. It was not necessarily viral, but it was a nice dose of early momentum again to get back on social.
Herbert Lui [00:14:03]
And it was a thread about Bill Watterson, who is the author of this series of maybe the best. I would say top five. But my favorite. One of my favorite equivalents to a graphic novel or illustrated stories. Right. Comics. Calvin and Hobbes.
Hamza Khan [00:14:25]
Gang. Gang. Probably my top two. Oh, Calvin and Hobbes.
Herbert Lui [00:14:29]
There we go. There we go. What about all the anime, though? There’s no anime that will top that. That’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying.
Hamza Khan [00:14:37]
I got some spicy opinions there, but keep cooking with Calvin and Hobbes.
Herbert Lui [00:14:40]
All right. Right. So Bill Watterson wrote and drew a Calvin and Hobbs strip every day for, oh, over a decade, I think. And he was approached actually with the option to license this work to make TV shows out of it, put it on clothing, all of those things. And he actually decided not to do it.
Herbert Lui [00:15:04]
He’s like, first of all, I don’t really have the time and energy to do that if I want to keep doing this comic strip really well. But secondly, I just. It’s my choice. I’m the artist and I get to decide if I don’t want to do it. I don’t need even a good reason to do it.
Herbert Lui [00:15:19]
I just don’t want to do it. I don’t want to say yes, so I’m going to say no.
Hamza Khan [00:15:23]
And Calvin taking the ball and going home.
Herbert Lui [00:15:26]
That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. And that was, I think he, you know, he has this speech at Kenyon College, 1990, so the year before I was born. And it was this commencement speech where he was basically saying, hey, creating an enviable life and being happy are two very different things. And it’s a theme that I came across.
Herbert Lui [00:15:49]
This speech, maybe the first time I wrote about it was like, 10 years ago when I was working at Lifehacker. And this speech always finds its way somehow back into my brain, whether it’s through online or it just pops up. I think it’s really important to remember. It’s like, hey, just because you’re doing things that other people might envy or might covet, it doesn’t mean you’re happy, necessarily.
Herbert Lui [00:16:13]
And vice versa, too. Just because you’re doing things that make you happy, they might not be the cool things that other people envy and covet. And so I’m thinking about, first of all, I’m just really happy that message got to reach a lot of people. And my thread was even inspired by someone else’s thread who really went viral.
Herbert Lui [00:16:33]
But for me, I think about that every day as I’m writing my blog, and I’m like, oh, I’m like, maybe 20 years too late to the blogging game, right? Like Seth Godin, I think, started his blog, 06. I don’t know, Tyler Cowan. And all these people, they still blog every day, but they start their blog in the 2000s.
Herbert Lui [00:16:51]
I started my blog. I started blogging every day in 2022. And Hamza, I was just doing the math. I don’t often do this, but I was just like, hey, wait, I think a big number is coming up soon. And I realized on November 10th I’m gonna have. That’s gonna be my thousandth blog post every day, which is pretty mind blowing.
Hamza Khan [00:17:10]
Pretty wild mind blowing. Most people will never write a hundred blog posts in their life. You’ve written a thousand in the last two years.
Herbert Lui [00:17:17]
I mean, yeah, it’s, you know, it’s just, it feels natural. And I think I actually recently a friend of mine, Michael Carnegie, who is the most notable for starting Skillshare, he took on the 100 day blog post challenge as well. And it was quite interesting. It’s really cool. You can see his blog mikecarnj.com last name is K A R N J dot com.
Herbert Lui [00:17:43]
Nice. And yeah, he wrote some really fire blog posts, so definitely worth checking out. And so between doing all that, it definitely, like gives me the. It makes me happy. First of all, it gives me a good amount of raw material as well to post onto the other things and all of that and to also get the energy to work on my book.
Herbert Lui [00:18:06]
And so it all feeds each other really well. But yes, I was gonna say to tie it all back to the book. Just keeping calm through all of that and being okay with being a couple weeks flexible with the deadline and so on and so forth, I think is critical because as you and I know, we’re Virgos.
Herbert Lui [00:18:23]
So it’s like, hey, that deadline’s coming up. It’s like, oh my gosh, I think I got three new white hairs. You. It’s hectic. And so being flexible with the deadline and being okay with, hey, this thing just needs to take a little bit more time. It’s going to be great, though. Is a critical decision to make.
Hamza Khan [00:18:39]
Yeah, man. Dude. And this is such a fundamental lesson for creativity, productivity, just getting shit done, which is energy and time goes. Energy and time flows, where attention goes, I’m guessing butchering that. But basically just picture a pyramid. At the base of the Pyramid is the 168 hours afforded to every single human being.
Hamza Khan [00:18:58]
168 hours a week is the canvas of time that we’re offered. And we can use that canvas of time to generate, I would say, a mostly finite amount of energy that can fit within that 168 hour container. And that all leads up to the point at the top, which is attention. What focus is really the top.
Hamza Khan [00:19:17]
But it all leads up to that performance point. And you have made this a priority. You have made getting this book done a priority. You have made blogging a priority. You’ve kept the main thing, the main thing. And as such, now, Herbert, you are reverse engineering your day to support that output. I imagine you’re using the best hours of your day to do your writing.
Hamza Khan [00:19:37]
You’re not writing at the end of the night. You’re not writing, you know, hungover. You’re writing in a very clear, cogent, fresh, you know, state. When you’re full of zest and zeal.
Herbert Lui [00:19:52]
I want to.
Hamza Khan [00:19:52]
Or on our own. Really.
Herbert Lui [00:19:54]
Yeah. For the. It’s actually not always as ideal as that. I will say that. I will say a lot of times the writing gets the leftovers of the day. There’s a good amount of time when it’s like 4:00pm, 5:00pm and I’m like, haven’t worked on the book yet. I’m gonna have a snack, I’m gonna go work on the book.
Herbert Lui [00:20:11]
And even if it’s half an hour, even if it’s one hour, it, it does feel sub optimized, I’ll say is one word to put it. But it feels a little painful as well because it feels like this. The most important thing. And you and I can agree that’s the most important thing.
Hamza Khan [00:20:27]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:20:28]
Is getting kind of the leftovers of the day. But I will also add that I. That used to be an excuse for me. It used to be an excuse. Oh, I’ll just work on it tomorrow. And I’ve decided, you know what? That’s no longer. I will give it whatever time I got. It’ll just get the leftover sometimes and I gotta be okay with that.
Herbert Lui [00:20:46]
And it’s too bad. But it’s also nothing to be ashamed of if you’re not giving it the best hours of the day. I don’t want to let optimization and idealism get in the way of actually doing the work and like shipping it, you know. So that’s also been a practice in doing that.
Herbert Lui [00:21:04]
Yeah.
Hamza Khan [00:21:05]
Interesting.
Herbert Lui [00:21:06]
It is, it’s interesting. I think like that’s just what happens when a, like real life happens a little bit. Right. I’m working and not reliant on the books to give me my full time income. So when I, you know, that often takes the job and the advising and the marketing often takes a good amount of the day.
Herbert Lui [00:21:30]
It takes a good amount of energy and a good amount of focus as well to wrap your head around problems and things like that. So on days, yes. Like there’s some days, hey, like I can, I can figure out the time and iron it out just before work or things like that. But there are often a lot of days where I’m also like, oh, like it’s like 9pm And I gotta, like, crank out a blog post.
Herbert Lui [00:21:52]
And it does feel very painful. It feels quite painful. Just like the brain is so tired. But I’m like, you know what? I’m gonna take it easy. I’m gonna. You gotta get used to it. And it’s kind of similar to. I mean, when I think about that, I think about an athlete who’s playing with a very minor injury, right?
Herbert Lui [00:22:09]
They’re like, look like I’m not in ideal state either, but I had to figure out how to work around this almost.
Hamza Khan [00:22:14]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:22:15]
Not likening writing a blog to, like, playing in the NBA, but maybe in, like a minor league or like a rec league or something. You know, it’s.
Hamza Khan [00:22:22]
It’s the Jordan theraflu game, Right?
Herbert Lui [00:22:26]
Exactly. In an ideal world.
Hamza Khan [00:22:29]
In an ideal world, he’s still Michael Jordan. And you’ve reminded me of something here, which is, look, I’m such a subscriber to the beginner’s mindset that I just, earlier today watched a reel that my boy made for my speaking, and I had a moment of disassociation where I’m like, oh, shit, I’m really him.
Hamza Khan [00:22:46]
I’m really the guy in that reel. Because I’m such a beginner in my mind that I don’t believe most of the time when my bio is read out. And so even if you come out your blog post at the end of the day with a depleted battery at the. In the equivalent state of Michael Jordan with a flu, the crazy thing is that you’re still Herbert.
Hamza Khan [00:23:06]
Like. Like you’re still gonna spit. You’re still gonna cook. There’s still fire that’s gonna emanate from those fingers and from the pen. Like, the pen game is nice no matter what. And so I wonder if it’s like, maybe the tables turn a little bit once you achieve mastery of your craft, and then there’s incremental improvements to be gained from working in an ideal state, because maybe you’re just always at master level, you know?
Hamza Khan [00:23:37]
And, you know, you go to your book at the end of the day, and the book is like, hey, man, why are you giving me the leftovers? And then you say to the book, you should be honored by my lateness that I would even show up to this.
Herbert Lui [00:23:52]
Okay, I love that.
Hamza Khan [00:23:54]
I got a story for you. So at the end of the week, I started off really fresh, so I bang out. Keynote number one goes really well. Keynote number two goes even better. Keynote number three, I’m a little shaky. Keynote number four, you know, I’m definitely not at my best. But the audience has no idea otherwise.
Hamza Khan [00:24:13]
Keynote number five. Ooh, buddy. I get up on stage and I’m like, oh, this is not good. I feel like I’m starting to black out. I’m. I’m mumbling my way through things. I’m stumbling my way through things. So I’m delivering this keynote, things are going well, and I’m like, oh, I missed that punchline.
Hamza Khan [00:24:29]
Oh, shit. Like, I should have done this. Why is my body language seem so close? Like, I. The. The inner. The. The simultaneous inner monologue, the concurrent monologue was overwhelming. The imposter, my God, was just on stage, kicking, screaming, biting me. It was a disaster mentally. And so I walk off stage being like, I hope that was okay, dude.
Hamza Khan [00:24:51]
The first two things happened to me. Career highs. I got offered a gig. As soon as I walked off stage, somebody came up to me right away and was like, oh, we’re gonna book you for our next event. I was like, wow, Shit.
Herbert Lui [00:25:02]
Amazing.
Hamza Khan [00:25:03]
And then one guy comes up to me. He’s like, oh, Hamza, that was the best keynote I’ve ever seen in 25 years.
Herbert Lui [00:25:09]
And I was like, 25 years, bro.
Hamza Khan [00:25:13]
And I was like, oh, yeah, you know what? It’s all in my head. I’m still him. I can do an exceptional keynote that can blow people’s minds even when I’m feeling depleted and now not completely depleted, not even close to burned out, not even close to overwhelmed, to the point where I can’t perform, but definitely not as sharp.
Hamza Khan [00:25:32]
I think that the fifth keynote that I did in the week got my leftovers. It was the equivalent of you showing up to your blog post at 4pm but the conversation needs to change because you and I are not talking like the Herbert and Hamza of 10 years ago. We’re talking about Herbert and Hamza in 2024, where we have enough confidence to say we’re going to thug it out in New York.
Hamza Khan [00:25:51]
That’s how much confidence we have. Like, it’s. It’s actually like irrational confidence. It’s. We are at the peak of Mount Stupid on the Dunning Kruger curve. I know rent’s coming up in four days, and I’m going to get a nice slap from reality being like, are you sure you’re really about this life?
Hamza Khan [00:26:08]
And I’ll be like, you know what? Let’s do it. Let’s go.
Herbert Lui [00:26:13]
You got to be rich just to be poor here, man. It’s. It’s really something.
Hamza Khan [00:26:17]
True words have never been spoken.
Herbert Lui [00:26:19]
And, like, the. Yeah, it’s Always nice to have an end of month reality check. But to go back to what you were saying, though, just now and earlier, the reason you could see all this stuff is because you give a shit, right? You.
Hamza Khan [00:26:33]
Yes.
Herbert Lui [00:26:33]
And you don’t want to turn that part of your brain off.
Hamza Khan [00:26:36]
It never.
Herbert Lui [00:26:36]
It’s like a different relationship. Maybe not, you know, even you knowing, hey, I’m not. We’re not going to be enemies anymore, Smeagol, Right? Like, we’re going to be. We’re going to be, you know, at least give me a break for a sec and you can. I’ll listen to you after. And the thing it brings us, I mean, let’s.
Herbert Lui [00:26:53]
Let’s dive into the theme for today, I think, which is. Which is giving a shit is a huge part of this process. Yeah, yeah, right. Like you have an idea, you need to give a shit and like develop it and then you need to finish it up. And so really the thing or the idea, It’s a mental framework that I want to talk about today and it’s something that a friend of mine, Michael Thompson, actually brought up with me.
Herbert Lui [00:27:21]
So Michael is an author of this book, Shy by Design. Really great author. He’s a teacher as well. He’s based out of Barcelona, Spain, so he’s teaching at a university there. And around a year ago he asked me, hey, are you a starter, a developer or a finisher? And that was an idea that he got from one of his collaborators, Kevin Kelly.
Herbert Lui [00:27:44]
And here’s the concept, right? Starters are great at filling out an initially blank page with ideas so they can scribble, they can draft all these things and they’re just so good at it. It just oozes out of them. It’s almost like you have a napkin in front of you and you just start something.
Hamza Khan [00:28:04]
Yes.
Herbert Lui [00:28:05]
So that’s a starter. A developer shines when they’re helping starters pressure test and advance those ideas. So to me, actually, the give a shit portion really relates to the developers aspect a lot because they see these things lying around and the developer’s like, wait, we need to make this good or we need to make this better.
Herbert Lui [00:28:25]
Right? And then a finisher thrives when they’re packaging up the ideas. So it’s been developed, it’s almost being done developed. And now it’s like, hey, we just need to, we need to really like take this to the finish line.
Hamza Khan [00:28:38]
Right, right, right.
Herbert Lui [00:28:39]
And put it out in a really, you know, it can’t just be loose like this. Right. It needs to be tightened up. It needs to Be polished. We need to even do some. I use the word packaging just now, but it’s maybe it’s similar from a product being engineering complete to being product complete, meaning engineers, you know, software devs.
Herbert Lui [00:29:01]
There’s a tendency in technology for engineers to just ship their work when they’re done, you know, they’re done debugging. They’ve, you know, it’s all looking good. They’ve quality assurance, tested it, and then they’re like, okay, cool, let’s just tweet it and it’s going to be out there. And that’s probably every marketer’s nightmare.
Herbert Lui [00:29:20]
It’s like a wish. Hold on. We need to really get all the messaging correct. We need to really put a launch campaign together. We need to talk to the product marketers and make sure, hey, like, are we talking, Are we integrating all the partners and having those things in the conversation? And so that’s really a finishing kind of question.
Herbert Lui [00:29:38]
There’s also times when you need to bring it to a key stakeholder or maybe a bunch of test users and go like, hey, like, is this working? And they might suggest that one change that’s going to blow you right through the deadline and you got to decide, hey, is that going to be okay?
Herbert Lui [00:29:56]
Right? And so I’ll pause there because those are the initial three. We can, we can start getting into each of, like, further descriptions of each one. But I’m curious based upon hearing that, Hamza, does that sound familiar to you? And which one might you identify with a little more?
Hamza Khan [00:30:13]
Yeah, dude, what a great framework. As you were saying that, my first thought was, which one am I? And then my second thought was, how cool. If we’re stretching the analogy that we created in episode one of the Business Athlete, if the sport is business, these are essentially the positions. This is like point guard, this is forward, this is linebacker.
Hamza Khan [00:30:36]
So in any company, you have these personalities. You have the starters, you have the developers, sometimes literally, and you have the finishers. And I’m starting to visualize, like, if you were playing a video game, you know, business 2K, let’s just say that was a game that we launched. Launch new material partners with EA to launch business 2K.
Hamza Khan [00:30:52]
And you got to sort of like, choose your characters. It’s like, what are their attributes? Who are they? And if you select the starter attribute, that’s like the inventor, that’s the visionary, that’s the Steve Jobs, that’s the hippie, for lack of a better word, in the organization. And I think that’s me. And I’ve heard this multiple times.
Hamza Khan [00:31:14]
In fact, Bailey says this all the time. And initially, I start when she first started saying it, it was a me issue. I started taking it as an insult because I pride myself on completed works. Like, I publish two books. Every keynote is a finished work. Like, I’m always shipping, I’m always delivering.
Hamza Khan [00:31:31]
But she’s like, hamza, you’re great at starting things, and then leave the execution to somebody else. And I didn’t understand what she meant by that. And now I finally get it after hearing this analogy, which is, yes, I can develop, yes, I can finish. But my zone of genius, if you will, is starting.
Hamza Khan [00:31:49]
When you said I. When you describe the attribute of this person as looking at a blank page and ideas ooze out from them, that’s me. I am the prime mover in all of the endeavors that I have right now. I’m usually the first person that initiates the email, brings the people together. I am the Kickstarter, the person who takes advantage of the first mover principle, the first mover advantage.
Hamza Khan [00:32:14]
So, yeah, dude, this is a really helpful framework and it’s actually helping me with the company that I’m building right now, visualize how this, how this group of people came together. So, yes, I concocted the idea at the top of the year. Then Bailey and other stakeholders started getting involved, and now we’re bringing in developers.
Hamza Khan [00:32:31]
But it’s interesting that the CTO role that we’re bringing in is acting as the finisher. So you can straddle all three of these realms as well. Just because you have a zone of genius, your zone of genius is in one area, doesn’t mean that you can’t do the others. But it’s worthwhile surrounding yourself with people that can complete a project, especially if you have the privilege of working in a team.
Hamza Khan [00:32:53]
So, yes, I, as the CEO of the new company, will have all three of these responsibilities or these areas of responsibility, and I will constantly be the one who’s starting. But I have a team of developers that will shepherd the project to the finish line. And I love that. At the finish line right now is our CTO and technical co founder, who is working backwards, who sees my vision and says, I’m going to bring it all the way here.
Hamza Khan [00:33:18]
So, very helpful framework. Shout out to your boy who inspired this and shout out to you for publishing about this on Herbert lay dot net.
Herbert Lui [00:33:27]
Oh, thank you, man. Thank you. I appreciate that. That’s so great to hear. And I can totally relate. I also identify most as a starter, really When?
Hamza Khan [00:33:37]
Yes, when I’m surprised, I thought developer.
Herbert Lui [00:33:40]
Yeah. Okay, that’s interesting. So when Michael first told me about this, I was like, I think I’m all three. And it has become much clearer to me that I get the most energy from starting and filling out blank pages with ideas. So the blog posts are a really good example, right? I love starting a blog post.
Herbert Lui [00:33:59]
There’s a lot of people I’ve met who if their energy isn’t developing, it’s really difficult for them to get started. I was talking to another friend who is this really great editor I’ve worked with, and he was saying, I was like, hey, why don’t. There’s the age of AI now, so you kind of need to build your own brand and all these things, right?
Herbert Lui [00:34:21]
Just put yourself out there a little more. And he’s like, I really don’t have a problem with making something good and taking a draft to completion and things like that. But it’s really hard for me to start stuff. And I made some suggestions to him. I was like, hey, maybe you can transcribe or dictate some of your thoughts into your phone and things like that.
Herbert Lui [00:34:47]
But at the end of the day, I can very much relate with what he’s saying because he gets the most energy from seeing something and then making it better. Michael is the same way. Michael works with a lot of clients to co write or edit. And really I think his phrase is he makes the word sing, right?
Herbert Lui [00:35:06]
And I’m like, oh, that’s like very much a developer kind of aspect. But for me, starting and finishing, the shortest distance from starting and finishing is like my favorite thing. And I actually have to restrain myself quite often and be like, look, even with this new book I’m working on, it’s like, hey, you don’t want to ship too early just because it’s uncomfortable and you don’t know how to make it good yet.
Herbert Lui [00:35:30]
You’re really wrestling with it and you just press publish for no reason other than that it’s uncomfortable. You really want to. How do I say this? You want to step back and cool off for a second and be like, hey, this isn’t where it needs to be yet. And that’s where the developer aspect comes in.
Herbert Lui [00:35:50]
It’s like, I give too much of a shit to just let this thing fly.
Hamza Khan [00:35:54]
Yes, yes.
Herbert Lui [00:35:56]
But I will say my default state if I wasn’t restrained would be, let’s just get it out there and then I can work on the next thing. And that’s why I also really like Finishing stuff because I can start on the next thing. I don’t like finishing it so that I can just finish it and be done with it.
Herbert Lui [00:36:10]
I’m like, I just want to start the next thing. And I totally agree, by the way, on what you said about the teams when you’re working on a team. So actually, maybe I’ll flip it first. When you’re working solo or on a small team, you need to do all three. And in a leadership role, as you said, Hamza, you really need to know which hat to put on when you’re going to need to do all three as well.
Herbert Lui [00:36:33]
Because the CEO is often the. In an ideal world, they’re the last line of defense in a way. Right. Like the buck stops with them. And anything that the company releases, it’s a reflection on them too.
Hamza Khan [00:36:44]
Totally.
Herbert Lui [00:36:45]
And so you need to be a finisher, but you also need to really keep a pulse on the higher level context of things and know what to start and what to stop.
Hamza Khan [00:36:55]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:36:56]
And make suggestions to the team. So at a leadership level, I think you need all three.
Hamza Khan [00:37:02]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:37:03]
But even when you’re just starting out independently, let’s say you’re on a very small team or you’re one person, you also need all three of these aspects and you need to, you know, as you mentioned, like when you’re building this out, if you’re on a team of 10 people, you don’t want everyone to be one type of energy.
Herbert Lui [00:37:23]
Right. You need to hire people who can complement each other. And so for me, if you’re hiring me as a starter, you want to get a developer who can appreciate the starter, but also like is very comfortable developing. And that’s the thing that they get a lot of energy from. And I guess looking back, that’s why me and Michael had worked so well together.
Hamza Khan [00:37:41]
I love the way that you describe these things as aspects because when I initially received them from you and I read about it on your blog, I saw them as archetypes, I saw them as roles. And the challenge with archetypes and roles is that people think that there’s only one and they fit into one.
Hamza Khan [00:37:59]
But as we said in episode two, Everything I’m not right makes me everything I am.
Herbert Lui [00:38:05]
100%.
Hamza Khan [00:38:06]
You are all three of these things. I mean, my brand ideas into action encompasses this entire spectrum in many ways. You could map this onto any sort of physics based description of movement. You know, there’s a starting point, there’s an ending point, and then there’s the actual action required to get from A to B.
Hamza Khan [00:38:24]
I think it’s as natural as the universe if we’re applying a permaculture lens to this. I mean, I think the most widely accepted theory, I don’t know if anybody doubts it, is there was a spark, a big bang, and then from that, matter started moving outward. So there was like, a point in space and time, and then temporally, things have been moving away from it.
Hamza Khan [00:38:43]
So the universe is also engaging and starting developing, and we don’t know what the final state is, but theories are that there’s going to be a heat death, there’s going to be a big freeze. At some point, the movement of the universe is going to stop. And then who are we as mortal beings, as these insignificant specks floating through the cold, vast emptiness of space, to think that we can do anything other than just obey the laws of physics itself?
Hamza Khan [00:39:06]
So you are all three of these things simultaneously. Now, yes, you may have a strength in one, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t develop and you can’t finish. And I now want to change my answer because, yes, Bailey thinks I’m a great starter, but I actually pride myself on finishing. I’m really good at evaluating, or not even just evaluating, like, conjuring in my mind the end state of anything.
Hamza Khan [00:39:30]
Like, I know what the end state of this podcast looks like. The end state of this podcast is me and you in a studio in New York or Calabasas. That should give you a clue with. Or Shibuya. Or I was going to say Yla or Milan. Or I’m going to just name a couple of places where we likely will have to do the episode.
Hamza Khan [00:39:54]
But you and I are going to have to get flown out or fly out to sit down with a guest that is really important to both of us and do the interview that is either going to begin the next act of our career or end our careers altogether. One of two things is going to happen.
Hamza Khan [00:40:10]
I hope it’s the former, it’s likely going to be the latter. But that, to me, is the end state of the podcast. Like, if that once we do that episode, it’s like, oh, shoot. Like we, in my mind, we finished. And at that point, you know, if you follow the Luinian change cycle, it goes unfreeze, change, refreeze, unfreeze, change, refreeze, and just keeps on going in that cycle here.
Hamza Khan [00:40:32]
And so, like, start, develop, finish, beginning, middle, end, unfreeze, change, refreeze. These three acts are, again, can be mapped onto the most basic of physics principles. So I love This a lot. And, you know, I think that there’s so much here at the level of productivity and peak performance that you can infer from this process or from these aspects.
Hamza Khan [00:40:55]
And I’m going to start using that word that you just used a couple of moments ago, because if you evaluate the end state, if you create an end state, then you can, as a CEO, as an individual contributor, start to determine the best way to initiate, to get the momentum necessary to pass on to the development developers or the development phase of the project to get to the end state.
Hamza Khan [00:41:16]
At the same time, you could probably also do it the other way around. You could just start and have a vague idea of where to finish. It’s entirely possible. You can drop into a project as a developer and then do the quick calculus of where did this start and where might this go?
Hamza Khan [00:41:28]
So I love this as a continuum. I think it’s. To borrow from the da Vinci idea. There’s nothing left to take away here. It’s as elegant and refined as a process gets. Well, I mean, what other stage would you add to this? What other aspect would you add to this? There’s really nothing else.
Hamza Khan [00:41:44]
At least I don’t think so for sure.
Herbert Lui [00:41:46]
I think it’s complete as a framework on its own. Big shouts to Kevin Kelly for. For coming up with it. We’ll link to Kevin’s original article here as well. And I think, I think it’s worth noting. You know, we talked about. I think. I think starting is simple enough, right. Spinning up a new idea and you almost can’t help it.
Herbert Lui [00:42:06]
It oozes out of you. I think developing is also. We’ve talked about it quite often. Right. Developing an idea very much to me is like an editor’s job almost. Right. Like an editor working with a writer. The writer is the person who pitches the idea conventionally, who drafts it up, who makes, you know, like sentences draft, and the editor, really, when you’re playing an editor role, you’re.
Herbert Lui [00:42:34]
You’re trying to make it better and you’re trying to make this article what it’s the best version of what it can be. That’s what a developer is supposed to do. I think that finishing is really the most interesting or like probably the most tricky part out of all of this as well.
Hamza Khan [00:42:52]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:42:52]
And it’s also very critical. I would say. I would say all three are critical. I was going to say it’s the most critical. I would say that it’s very wasteful to start and develop and not finish something.
Hamza Khan [00:43:05]
Absolutely.
Herbert Lui [00:43:06]
Whereas if. But the flip side is also true, which is if you only know how to finish stuff and you have nothing to finish, then you can’t really do much.
Hamza Khan [00:43:13]
Right?
Herbert Lui [00:43:13]
So I think that finishing. I wanted to talk really quickly about a story that actually I thought of and wrote at my blog, but it’s about Nintendo. So there’s this video game designer, Shigeru Miyamoto.
Hamza Khan [00:43:28]
Let’s go.
Herbert Lui [00:43:30]
Yes. Working in Nintendo. And they were the boss, right? So they’re like, hey, look, I’ve, you know, I’m supervising everything. And so there’s this game that’s coming out, the Legend of Zelda, Twilight Princess. And it was, you know, the team was on track to make a deadline. Everyone’s rushing forward. Like, you know, translations were already starting and Miyamoto was like, hey, you know, they gave it to Miyamoto to test.
Herbert Lui [00:43:56]
They made it as good as they possibly could and they gave it to him to test. And he’s like, wait, hold on a sec. This first village where, you know, in a day in the game is maybe a few minutes, but it’s too short right now. Let’s make it three days. They got to spend in the village so the user can get more familiar with the controls, but also maybe like get more comfortable with the world and we don’t just throw them in.
Herbert Lui [00:44:20]
And the team was like, oh my gosh. And they’re working overtime already. They’re like, okay, we really got to scramble to meet this deadline. So we have to pause the translations and we have to get everything done. So that’s the first story. And there’s another even more interesting story here. You know, years before this, right?
Herbert Lui [00:44:39]
Maybe even decades before there was a game. Have you heard of this game? Tinkle Popo?
Hamza Khan [00:44:45]
No, dude, Tinkle Popo, that is. It’s a weird name.
Herbert Lui [00:44:50]
It’s a weird name.
Hamza Khan [00:44:52]
One of the most pause worthy names I’ve ever heard. Tinkle Pop. Hey, yo.
Herbert Lui [00:45:03]
So true.
Hamza Khan [00:45:04]
That’s my stripper name. Tinkle Popo.
Herbert Lui [00:45:08]
So Tinkle Popo was going through Miyamoto’s review and this was decades ago, they had pre sold 26,000 units of this game.
Hamza Khan [00:45:16]
Oh wow.
Herbert Lui [00:45:17]
And they’re like, wait, hold on, we gotta pause this thing. And so for the next year, and a little bit more than that, the team polished the game a lot more and they gave it a new name. Most importantly, Kirby’s Dreamland. And what? Yes. So Kirby’s Dreamland, the original Kirby, originally. Tinkle Popo.
Herbert Lui [00:45:38]
Yeah, Kirby was going to be called Tinkle Popo.
Hamza Khan [00:45:41]
Yeah. I’m never Going to play Smash Brothers the same again. What?
Herbert Lui [00:45:45]
Right. And so this whole year, right, that Miyamoto made the decision, hey, this is not good. We need to develop it a little more. But also we need to decide, hey, how are we going to finish this?
Hamza Khan [00:45:58]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:45:59]
And it was already technically in the finishing stage. They were doing preorders. He’s like, wait, we need to pause this. This is not working. And that turned what would have been probably a really obscure game, probably stuck in. You know, it was developed by Nintendo. Probably wouldn’t have made it too far out of Japan.
Hamza Khan [00:46:18]
Right?
Herbert Lui [00:46:18]
It’s like, it’s Kirby now. Like, everybody knows Kirby. It’s like the favorite, right? Like, there’s Kirby merch everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. And so it’s. I think it was so fascinating just to hear this story about, hey, like, you really do need to understand when to. The job of a finisher is even to be like, hey, this is not finished.
Herbert Lui [00:46:40]
Like, not good enough. It’s kind of like a developer aspect as well, except the developers are also, like, doing a lot of the active work on it. The finisher has to be like, hey, this is the standard we’re meeting here. It’s not there and it’s really sucky for everyone to hear this, but we’re gonna have to, like, push this out a little bit more if we want it to be as if we want it to create the biggest opportunity possible.
Herbert Lui [00:47:06]
So it was just.
Hamza Khan [00:47:07]
Wow.
Herbert Lui [00:47:07]
Yeah, I’ll pause there.
Hamza Khan [00:47:09]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:47:09]
Just one of my favorite stories, though.
Hamza Khan [00:47:11]
I love that. Let me ask you a totally unrelated question.
Herbert Lui [00:47:14]
Yes.
Hamza Khan [00:47:16]
First of all, thank you for that. I don’t want to diminish the story that you shared, which is tremendously valuable with my stupid question.
Herbert Lui [00:47:23]
Oh, here we go. Here we go.
Hamza Khan [00:47:25]
Who is the rapper equivalent of Tinkle Popo? The attributes are underrated, counted out, umiquitous. That is such ubiquitous, annoying, but effective.
Herbert Lui [00:47:40]
Oh, man, I got one.
Hamza Khan [00:47:44]
But I want to see what you say go first.
Herbert Lui [00:47:47]
Like, I mean, I think about this, I think about the. Okay, I got one. But it’s not a rapper, it’s an album.
Hamza Khan [00:47:54]
And even better, It’s.
Herbert Lui [00:47:56]
Yes, it’s 31520 by Childish Gambino, also now currently known as Atavista. And so the reason I listed that one is because I don’t think it was quite done yet. I think it was done as an album in terms of music. And yeah, you could fix some of the mixing and mastering, maybe add a couple more songs.
Herbert Lui [00:48:17]
When you compare at Avista, which Childish Gambino released earlier this year. And 3:15, 20, it’s not, like, totally different. It’s a little different.
Hamza Khan [00:48:27]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:48:28]
But 3:15, 20 came out, and I think he put it out at an interesting time, which was just the beginning of the pandemic. And he was like, hey, look, people are going to be inside. Let’s give this. This is a moment, you know, let’s like, publish it. But I think it was also just.
Herbert Lui [00:48:43]
It was a little rushed. You could tell. And it was showing the. It was showing the incomplete nature of the creative process. Right. It was a snapshot of that album, but it didn’t feel completely finished yet. It felt like a punk album that came out. It was like a punk move to just put it out there and be like, all right, cool.
Herbert Lui [00:49:03]
Like, you guys do what you want with it. I’m the artist. So I have another post about this punk packaging versus polished packaging. And Atavista is super polished. Super well done. If it came out at the time, I think it would have spread a lot further. But because he split that single release into two releases, I think the effort of it was a little spread out a little further.
Herbert Lui [00:49:29]
I’m not saying that it’s annoying or anything like that, but I think it’s album that would have made a much greater impact if it was released and focused as one. One release.
Hamza Khan [00:49:40]
You know, I’ve never listened to that album, but knowing what I know about Childish Gambino, that does seem very apropos. Yeah, Childish Gambino, AKA Tinkle Popo.
Herbert Lui [00:49:53]
No, no. Atavista. Atavista. Well, maybe Childish Gambino too, because that was like a Wu Tang name generator. So you wonder, hey, would there have been a. If he had a better name, would his art go even further? Now I want to pause there and say, hey, hold on a sec. Challenge. Gambino is, like, super successful, so let’s.
Hamza Khan [00:50:13]
Get him on the pod. I have to be careful because I’ve been taking shots at Jay for no reason over the last two episodes, and I’m worried that we’re compromising our ability to get Jay on the pod at some point. So I just want to let any representatives from Roc Nation who are materialists to know that when I record these pods with Herbert, I’m dropping my guard as Hamza Khan, author, educator, entrepreneur, whatever, and just being silly, but also, like, super thoughtful about our audience and sensitive to topics to the extent that we actually, from the last episode, had to delete a careless joke that I threw.
Herbert Lui [00:50:50]
In there for sure.
Hamza Khan [00:50:50]
So I just want to apologize to Evan and Anybody else who had to listen to that initial version of the episode, there was something that I. I snuck in there to try and be funny, but I was like. As soon as I recorded, I’m like, oh, man, Herbert, I’m. My bad, man. Like, I don’t want my joke to be out there, dude.
Hamza Khan [00:51:05]
So Tinkle Popo. Yes.
Herbert Lui [00:51:07]
You care, though. You care.
Hamza Khan [00:51:08]
I give a shit.
Herbert Lui [00:51:09]
You give a shit.
Hamza Khan [00:51:09]
I give a shit. I give a shit.
Herbert Lui [00:51:10]
And the only reason you mentioned Jay so much is because we followed his career so closely and we’re such huge fans and same for Drake. Like, you might have. You know, we might have both been a little constructively critical of Drake at times, but also, it’s just because we care so much.
Hamza Khan [00:51:25]
Like, I care to the extent where, like, I think, like, Drake, Drake is one of the only people in the world who can get me to stop what I’m doing right now. If he reached out to me, he’s like, hey, man, like, come on board. OVO as, like, a creative director. OVO Hamza.
Hamza Khan [00:51:40]
I’m in, man. I think, like, since OVO Brian dropped out, there’s a spot open, right? I’ll come through. You know, I was just about to make another terrible joke, and I’m like, I have to remember now that I am a public figure, so let me take it easy, man. Shout out to our.
Herbert Lui [00:51:54]
Who is your Tinkle Popo, though?
Hamza Khan [00:51:58]
Last episode, episode two, Francis Foreign Car Coppola. If you counted it, it was, like 17 mentioned at least 12 times, so. Holy. Okay, let me get it together. So the aspects that I gave of TP were underrated, discounted, but ubiquitous and competent. Like, when you encounter this person and you’re like, yo, they exist.
Hamza Khan [00:52:39]
They’re actually nice. My equivalent of Dingle Bobo was Fat Joe.
Herbert Lui [00:52:52]
Dude, I’m tearing right now.
Hamza Khan [00:52:55]
She looks like Tangled Popo a little bit.
Herbert Lui [00:53:00]
Wait, that was actually a really good answer, though. Hold on.
Hamza Khan [00:53:03]
I hope Fancy holds his breath. He looks like Tangled Popo.
Herbert Lui [00:53:08]
You’re wilding. You’re wilding.
Hamza Khan [00:53:11]
I’m never going to be able to run for office. This new material is going to be the death of me, man. Okay, so. Okay, going bad joke.
Herbert Lui [00:53:17]
Hold on. Oh, my God.
Hamza Khan [00:53:19]
We have to put a bow on this episode. We have to. We have to come back to. We have to finish the episode. We’ve been developing it. We’ve been derailed. Let’s debug this quickly and finish the episode.
Herbert Lui [00:53:31]
I totally agree. Okay. Fat Joe is a really good response. Yeah. Do you want to dive into that That’s a good. I would totally agree with that.
Hamza Khan [00:53:39]
So. So Fat Joe is never in any of the conversations. He’s never in the top five conversation, the top ten conversation. I doubt he’s in the top 50 or top 100 conversation. There’s. I can’t think of a single list that Fat Joe is on, but he’s competent. Like, when you listen to his raps, I’m like, oh, good.
Hamza Khan [00:53:56]
He’s actually very skilled. You know, he came up under, arguably one of the top 10. Big pun. And he was a protege, he was a peer. And so you see a lot of that influence in Fat Joe’s work. And Fat Joe’s consistent. You know, he’s an entertaining personality. The way he’s transitioned into business and into becoming a media mogul has been quite, quite, quite rewarding to watch as somebody who is obsessed with ideas of not immortality necessarily, but, like, what happens after this?
Hamza Khan [00:54:30]
Because, I don’t know, like, me and you are flying by the seat of our pants. There’s no blueprint. There’s no one who we can look at and be like, yeah, this is the version of Herbert that has gone the distance. Like, we’re carving this path as we go. So to see someone like Fat Joe constantly reinvent himself is really cool.
Hamza Khan [00:54:43]
And he still goes by Fat Joe, even though he’s like a quarter of the size now.
Herbert Lui [00:54:48]
Yeah, he’s not Fat Joe anymore. Joe as a name, first of all, already taken.
Hamza Khan [00:54:53]
As an artist name, already taken. So, yeah, going back to my database, my repository of hip hop monikers, Fat Joe is up for grabs. If there’s anybody out there who is larger and named Joe, know that Fat Joe as a moniker is available for purchase 99.95 GoDaddy.com so. And he’s also very competent.
Hamza Khan [00:55:20]
And when you listen to me, like, oh, yeah, he’s really. He’s really good, Ben. He’s ubiquitous. Because I think that you can be anywhere in the world and there’s like two or three songs that people just know. They might not know. Fat Joe made the song or was featured on the song. But, like, he’s got some universal bangers.
Herbert Lui [00:55:35]
Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. I hate to not lean back just now while you were saying all this. You know, I’m like, okay, okay, that’s right. You know, yeah, it’s so true. And he’s definitely just such an iconic cultural figure. Right? Just such a legend. You know, I just read the. I forget if it was an interview.
Herbert Lui [00:55:59]
I’ve been seeing him around a Little more lately. And yeah, he’s like a great father. You know, just all of these incredible. He plays a lot of important roles really well.
Hamza Khan [00:56:10]
Yeah.
Herbert Lui [00:56:10]
And so big shouts to Fat Joe.
Hamza Khan [00:56:12]
A lot of respect, man.
Herbert Lui [00:56:14]
So much respect. I mean, in some ways, he’s actually also Kirby. You know, it’s a. It’s a funny. It’s a funny, you know, the comparison between what could have been versus what is right now. And you.
Hamza Khan [00:56:26]
Right.
Herbert Lui [00:56:26]
You know, you start thinking about those things. But, you know, we’re. We’re on the note of. Of concluding this pod. I think that was. I think that was a super interesting, interesting comparison and thought exercise about what packaging could have done.
Hamza Khan [00:56:43]
I think so. I think so, man. And so let me ask you then, Herbert, in sharing the SharePoint responsibilities here, what advice would you give to the materialists when it comes to navigating the process of starting, developing, and finishing?
Herbert Lui [00:56:59]
For sure. I think for me, two pieces. One is if you’re naturally good at something, it’s going to be completely counterintuitive. You need to both double down on what you’re good at and lean into it a little more. Right. You need to know yourself and be like, okay, cool. This is the spot on the team that I’m the best at.
Herbert Lui [00:57:22]
So, for example, me knowing that I’m a starter, if you told me to write one blog post a week, I could make it better than all seven of my daily blog posts, for sure. But I’d probably stop after four weeks because I’m like, I don’t like doing this.
Hamza Khan [00:57:36]
Right.
Herbert Lui [00:57:38]
And so I write, I’ve been able to get close to a thousand. Will be a thousand. Nice, man. And I don’t know how many more, but I’ve been able to do that because it’s just, like, feels natural to me and it feels very energizing to me to do it every day. I can’t wait to do it the next day is like, you know, I look back, it’s one of the best parts of my day.
Herbert Lui [00:57:57]
And so you want to lean into that strength while also. Excuse me, simultaneously, you also want to strengthen and get more familiar with all of the complementary aspects. Right. So development, for example, I don’t know if I would have gotten that good at it if I didn’t have to do it for work.
Herbert Lui [00:58:19]
But through working with. When I worked at Shopify plus and my client there, Tommy, really, like, helped me set the foundation for what good editing looks like. And then I worked with Rachel on creative doing, and that really set the foundation. And I Worked with the team at Figma to really set like an upgraded foundation for all of this stuff on what good editing looks like and what good work needs to look like, and sometimes also the challenging things, questions, explorations you need to take to get there.
Herbert Lui [00:58:53]
And also, you know, through all three of these people and many more. I’m sorry if I forgot or it’s not in my mind right now. It’s very uncomfortable work to get good at one of these aspects you’re not good at, but it’s really, really valuable and it will make you even better at the role that you currently play.
Herbert Lui [00:59:13]
And it’ll teach you how to collaborate with. If you’re a starter, you’ll work with developers and finishers in a much better, more harmonious way because you’ll also understand where they’re coming from. And so I would say that’s, you know, double down on your strength and also get really familiar and ideally kind of good with the other two aspects as well.
Herbert Lui [00:59:33]
That’s my advice. Hamza, what about you? What’s your. What suggestions or recommendations would you have for someone listening to this?
Hamza Khan [00:59:40]
Dude, I can’t. I can’t top that. That was. That was perfect. I’ll just add, just reflecting on my own epiphanies of thinking where I’m at in this continuum, giving yourself some grace and recognizing that if you are adept at one of these aspects, it’s like, take that feeling as a lesson. It’s not a life sentence by any means, but just because you’re really great at starting now doesn’t mean that you are never going to develop competency as a developer or as a finisher.
Hamza Khan [01:00:10]
You can just oscillate throughout your entire career and it’s okay. But what’s really important, most important, I would say, is just the awareness that this is a cycle. It’s a cycle, as I mentioned using some wild analogies earlier, that is as natural as the formation of the universe itself. And honestly, for anybody right now who has an idea that they’re looking to bring forth to materialize, if you’re looking to have an idea come to life, just simplify the process of doing so and recognize that it’s somewhere on this continuum right now, if the idea is in your soul, it needs to start.
Hamza Khan [01:00:46]
If the idea has been written and you haven’t revisited, revisited the idea in a long time, if it’s in a notebook somewhere, it needs to be developed, or, you know, if you have an email that needs to be sent, it’s at the finisher stage. So Just start to think about your creative work and just your work in general, maybe even your life in these terms.
Hamza Khan [01:01:05]
And I promise you, Herbert and I both promise you that you will be able to move it further along this continuum and hopefully have it come to life sooner.
Herbert Lui [01:01:16]
Hamza, that was great. That was great advice. I think it’s so critical to remember, hey, like, first of all, not to let this label box you in, but rather to let this label liberate you and to use even your strength to get really good at the other things. You know, if you like starting stuff, get good at finishing so that you can start the next thing.
Herbert Lui [01:01:37]
You know, there’s. There’s so many ways to think about that. And I totally agree. Is like, you know, being. Being forgiving of yourself, accepting your own strengths and weaknesses by extension, and working on both of those things is a great note to close on.
Hamza Khan [01:01:52]
Boom.
Herbert Lui [01:01:53]
Thank you so much for listening to this. Yes, excited to do the next one, but this was a great convo. Please let us know if you have any questions, thoughts, and you can always check us [email protected] if you’re listening to this on your favorite podcast app. Please rate us, subscribe, and let us know what you think.
Herbert Lui [01:02:12]
All right, we’ll catch you next time.
Hamza Khan [01:02:13]
See ya.